Forum: Technology

Well I agree with you to a point Roscoe, I mean the book didn't get into specifics of all his engagements so it's difficult to tell. It's difficult for me to believe Boyd pulled the same maneuver every time. It would be interesting to know more about just what he did at Nellis.

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Can't imagine any other way to get full reversal from pure defensive position in 20 seconds (His bet was 40 secs or less but claimed it always took less but didn't want to totally humiliate the other guy)

Yet they fell for it every time. In that case, he might have been one-tricking it, but if it ain't broke, why fix it?

Salute!

Damned good comments.

Without Boyd and Riccione and Gerry Gentry and some others, there would not have been a Viper. no matter how great a fighter pilot they were.

The politics of the late 60's and early 70's were something to behold. Hell, it's how I got my letter of reprimand from a General for speaking my piece re: A-7D versus A-10.

I am sure that I heard Boyd address the studs at SOS when I was an instructor at Maxwell. He was out on the fringe by that time, with 'fast linear transients' and a long explanation of the OORDA loop, or whatever he called it. We also heard a lot from young thinkers about 'manuever warfare' doctrine that the Army was adopting. Turned out well, as 'raqi I and 'raqi II showed.

I later met Riccione at Hill, when he came by to talk with us about similar concepts for aerial warfare. he used a pool table to demonstrate how zooming about the playing field increased the odds of encountering the enemy. The trick was to engage, then scoot out faster than the enema. Seemed outta date to me, as we already had AWACS for support, and already knew where the bad guys were.

The debate about quantity versus quality will go on, my friends. The thing that makes the Viper so good, is that it has QUALITY. And when it was procured, it was about one-third the price of an Eagle, and lots easier to maintain. Also remember that I told you guys that the Eagle mafia wouldn't allow the F-16 to have a BVR missile, because Congress would have cut off funding for the Eagle.

Finally, USAF wanted the A-10 and had given all the SLUF's away. Plus, the Eagle mafia had sworn, "not a pound for air-to-ground". So the Viper had to have a decent air-to-ground capability.

As far as 'revolutionary tactics' and such - big deal. The Mig-15 and -17 and F-86 could turn like crazy compared to the Hun and Thud and 104. So you had to exploit your plane's advantages, just like the Camels and Spads did 80 years ago. As we got faster jets, the turn and burn tactics didn't work as well. Fights got lots bigger and slower a lot sooner than before. Hell, I could turn the Deuce end-to-end in a few seconds, but then I was at 90 knots!!!! Secret was what Boyd figured out - maintain your big 'E'. The Viper FLCS really helped you as far as maintaining energy, as you couldn't turn as hard as the Eagle or Hornet up front(nose-pointing ability), but after a second or two you gained an advantage.

Early Vipers had an E-M display option that nobody could figure out. It supposedly showed you excess energy, best climb schedule, etc. Was too hard to interpret, and I think it went out with Block 15 avionics package.

later,

As usual, Obi-Gums, you speaketh the truth and I agree with you......except on the part about the A-10. The AF most certainly did NOT want the A-10. Didn't want anything to do with it. The bomber generals were in their twilight at that time, and they still had enough power to summarily reject its concept. If it weren't for SecDef Schlesinger and Pierre Sprey, there would have been no A-10, as well as no F-16. Schlesinger is another who had a very large part in the adoption of both aircraft. Both were shoved down the AF's throat. The A-10 and the F-16 are cut from the same cloth. Both were the last aircraft to be the least gold plated at the time of their development. The A-10 having pretty much stayed there ever since. And a damn good thing it did.

Salute!

A great thread that has evolved from a common point of interest.

I recommend we start a new thread about the procurement of various planes like the A-10, F-16, F-11, etc.

First, I was a big supporter of the A-10 concept, having just completed a combat tour with 400 hours of being shot at, shot up, and shot down ( almost, as deadsticked the sucker and helped to push it off the runway, heh heh).

We can go into detail on the new thread, but I am here to tell you that the USAF was looking for a replacement for the A-1 Skyraider. It would also be a jet, and it would be easy to maintain by Third World outfits. Finally, it would be a tank-buster, hence that big cannon.

To sell the plane, USAF had to sacrifice the A-7D. That's what got me in trouble.

The F-16 resulted from the 'fighter mafia', of which Boyd was a major player. Seemed like we had all our eggs in one basket - the F-15. Damned things were gonna be really expensive, so we could only afford a few. And we needed a mix of jets to cover the spectrum. The F-16 had the capability to do as well as the A-7D and easily outmatch the F-100 and F-4 when it came to dlivering pig iron. PLUS, it was a really good knife-fighter in the air-to-air arena.

Lets start a new thread and expand upon some aviation lore, huh?

You got it Obi-Gums, <a href="f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1806.html">new thread</a> cometh Wink

Good idea on a new thread. But if we are going to make progress, the past is nice,..... but it is the past.... something that a lot of A-10 people have no concept to understand. The A-10 is useful today. Just a lot less so. Give me a GFAC trained in todays methods and fast fixed wing forced ( manned and unmanned ) delivering death from 40k with near all weather PGMs to sub 4 meter hits including NCW bandwith that is improving as time goes by.... And suddenly the A-10 aint the first tool out of the bag most of the time.

Yup, this reminds me of a little story.

One of my best friends got asked if he had ever heard of Boyd, this is the best I remember of Sharkbait's answer...

"Have I meet Boyd? Yeah, I heard he was in town and gave him a call and asked him if he wanted to come over and fly a real fighter. So he showed up and I stuck him in the front of a two seat Zipper. Yes they would have court-martialed me if they would have found out, but no worse than the time we took a family model Zipper out across country for a month with Ben, a Skunkworks Tech Rep for the F-104 and F-117. So Boyd flew the Zipper and could not believe how fast she could accelerate, climb, and run, he did admit nothing could touch her in that. Thought she needed more wing so she could also fight horizontally, not just in the vertical." Also many multi syllable cuse words were included in the debrief...

Funny, the F-16 started with wingtip mounted Aim-9s, leading edge maneuvering flaps, single seat, single engine, light weight fighter, dorsal fins, left side M61 gun, and almost the same landing gear and location...

F-104 was designed by Kelly Johnson. F-16 was designed by Harry Hillaker. Both were Aeronautical Engineering students (graduates) from the University of Michigan in the early/mid 1930s. While they were there at the same time they were not classmates. U of M must have had a helluva AE department...

Great story Sharkbait! Did you ever keep in touch? And did he ever call you 'tiger'? Wink

Habu,

Sharkbait is now resting in Arlington National Cemetery. When the canopy doesn’t come off, and the Martin Baker seat doesn’t work correctly, even a great warrior can get killed. Tom died on 7/22/2003.

habu2, You said it!

Roscoe, after reading about the "Pentagon Wars" in "Boyd : The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War",
I think it's because he T-offed and alienated enough generals is why he was so successful. If he gave into the brass about F-16 like he did with the F-15 and letting them stop him from making noise who knows what our guys would be flying now! (most likely, i think, if not for Boyd, we would have something from Euro, not that the EF-2000 is bad...) Look the Fighter Maifa was created and won the Pentagon wars because of Boyd. And thank God for them...
Now I argee he may have not been the best pilot ever, but I don't think the 40 second thing was a fluke, no way... to do something like that year after year takes more than just luck.

Roscoe, after reading about the "Pentagon Wars" in "Boyd : The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War",
I think it's because he T-offed and alienated enough generals is why he was so successful. If he gave into the brass about F-16 like he did with the F-15 and letting them stop him from making noise who knows what our guys would be flying now! (most likely, i think, if not for Boyd, we would have something from Euro, not that the EF-2000 is bad...) Look the Fighter Maifa was created and won the Pentagon wars because of Boyd. And thank God for them...
Now I argee he may have not been the best pilot ever, but I don't think the 40 second thing was a fluke, no way... to do something like that year after year takes more than just luck.

Yellow13 wrote:

Roscoe, after reading about the "Pentagon Wars" in "Boyd : The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War", I think it's because he T-offed and alienated enough generals is why he was so successful. If he gave into the brass about F-16 like he did with the F-15 and letting them stop him from making noise who knows what our guys would be flying now! (most likely, i think, if not for Boyd, we would have something from Euro, not that the EF-2000 is bad...) Look the Fighter Maifa was created and won the Pentagon wars because of Boyd. And thank God for them...

I'll agree that he won the battles he did because of his personality, and if he were a little nicer it is possible he may have lost more than he would have gained. As for the Eagle, I don't think he gave in to the Brass, but rather I think that given the state it was in when he engaged, he won as much as he could and when he recognized that no more was possible he extended. He saved his best work for the Viper Smile

Yellow13 wrote:

Now I argee he may have not been the best pilot ever, but I don't think the 40 second thing was a fluke, no way... to do something like that year after year takes more than just luck.

I have to diagree here. By all accounts it was one move that won him every bet. In another airplane without the huge energy dump from a snap roll he wouldn't have been able to pull that off. Now don't get me wrong...he knew his plane and how to make it work to his advantage, you can't expect a pilot to be able to do more. I never said he wasn't the best ever, I just don't see that it was earned based on one trick play..even one that worked every time Cool

Forum: Technology

Anyone read Boyd?