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Newbie Joined: Aug 11, 2007 Posts: 7 Status: Offline

No fighter is invincible. The F-22 if properly employed will have advantages in many areas. Its combination of low RCS and high sustained speeds alone make it a handful. Add the drivers increased awareness due to sensor fusion and the thrust vectoring, and I am glad it is on our side! Sure it could kill four F-16s. Can it also survive that engagement in a daylight fight is the question. ECM and AWACS being equal, a single F-15 or F-18 loaded up with AMRAAMs might be able to kill 4 F-16s if it detects them first, but the F-16s would surely launch killing shots of their own. The point is that legacy fighters (15s, 16s, 18s) with the most modern missiles and sensors are going to create a blood bath if equally pitted against one another. If we are not there yet, we will be soon. Their performance and RCS isn't getting better, but the A2A weapon are. The F-22 and hopefully the F-35 (I'm not convinced there) are designed to dominate these older types. They should, you would expect that in 1980, an F-15 or F-16 would have dominated a F-100 or F-106.

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Newbie Joined: Jul 10, 2007 Posts: 18 Status: Offline

Just saw a History channel deal on the F-22. Claim was that during qualifying an F-22 nailed 5 F-15s. Further claim was that the F-15s never saw him until they were toasted.

Don't know any details, and I'm far from an expert. And, of course this was the missile simulation. But, it does provide some data.

ford2go

Not really a fair fight though is it!

Parkeran

Quote:

Sure it could kill four F-16s. Can it also survive that engagement in a daylight fight is the question.

Are you assuming that past engagements were done strictly at night or something and that made a difference?

Newbie Joined: Aug 11, 2007 Posts: 7 Status: Offline

No, I but I am saying the tests conducted so far have largely been in controlled environments where the F-22s were able to leverage their avionics and stealth to the max. That won't always be the case in combat. I am also saying that a single F-22 in a merged fight with four or even two F-16s (pilot skill being equal) would be in trouble.

Also consider that we are comparing avionics from two different generations. A F-22 vs F-35 fight will be more interesting. Now, politics will come into play here. If those first test fights with production aircraft occur prior to termination of F-22 production, we'll likely hear how the Raptors took the F-35s to the wood shed. If the F-22s fate has already been decided and the F-35s procurement levels are being fought over (as will be the case for its entire production life), I suspect the F-35 will do very well. Bottom line, those A2A results will be calculated, manipulated and in some cases be pure old fashion propaganda (depending on DOD's procurement priorities at the time).

Newbie Joined: Jul 14, 2006 Posts: 18 Status: Offline

I fight them every day. Your first clue you're targeted by a raptor is the kill call. If you start visually, they will crush you in a 1v1 BFM fight. If you out number the raptor in a visual fight and have a helmet and 9x, he will most likely be walking home. A jet is only as good as the guy flying it though.

ford2go wrote:

Just saw a History channel deal on the F-22. Claim was that during qualifying an F-22 nailed 5 F-15s. Further claim was that the F-15s never saw him until they were toasted.

This is a familar song by pilots who oppose the F-22A. There is a good post by an F-16C pilot Vprwzl. He discusses an encounter with a F-22 while he was flying his F-16C. "F-16 Versus the F-22" By Vprwzl -The 3rd post on the page.
http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... bc383fa95f

redbird87 wrote:

I am saying the tests conducted so far have largely been in controlled environments where the F-22s were able to leverage their avionics and stealth to the max. That won't always be the case in combat.

Remember when the F-15A first entered operational status, it had a huge advantage over its contemporaries and with its high T/W and low wing loading. It could fight a kind of fight no previous aircraft and it consistently prevailed and, look at the history of the F-15 in combat. Now, the F-22A is in the same situation. It is able to fight in a manor no other aircraft can, so it is only smart to use that advantage.

redbird87 wrote:

I am also saying that a single F-22 in a merged fight with four or even two F-16s (pilot skill being equal) would be in trouble.

Other than in a test, why doesn't the F-22 have a wingman? Given the radar advantage of the F-22A, why would it go to the merge?

Adrian

Well, i'm no pilot (to bad really), but the link avon1994 posted (above mine guys Wink

). Really says it all I think... How much closer can you get to the answer then from a Viper driver who has really done A2A against a F-22? Not closer I think Very Happy

. And I really love the Viper as an airplane, but I can't do anything else but admit that the F-22 is just a little better Sad

. There is really nothing we can do about it, but let's be honest, the Raptor is designed to beat the F-15C, F-16. So its supposed to be better (if it wasn't you could just take the new F-16 Block 60 Doh

). And before some people are going to say "well he was just in one F-16" (i'm 16 and Dutch so it's probably stated wrong, but you get the point), if you read the article you will find that not only his F-16 was 'blown' out of the sky, but the whole Red Air! I think that settles it Wink

.

Tim Crazy Pilot

Newbie Joined: Jul 01, 2008 Posts: 3 Status: Offline

They put 15 F-15s up against one F-22 and still the Raptor came out on top without trouble. To put up only 4 F-16s against one F-22 would be suicide. The Raptor's radar can track at least 4 separate targets at any one time, prioritizes them, and thus makes a decesion of threat that no other system is capable of. And the range that it does that is far superior to any other fighter out today, all the while showing up as nearly nothing on any enemy radar that might have the power.

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 Posts: 1127

pdrach16 wrote:

They put 15 F-15s up against one F-22 and still the Raptor came out on top without trouble. To put up only 4 F-16s against one F-22 would be suicide. The Raptor's radar can track at least 4 separate targets at any one time, prioritizes them, and thus makes a decesion of threat that no other system is capable of. And the range that it does that is far superior to any other fighter out today, all the while showing up as nearly nothing on any enemy radar that might have the power.

6 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders... So it shot down the last 7 with gun kills? Or was it an "Ace Combat" loadout with 50 missiles? Very Happy

Newbie Joined: Jul 01, 2008 Posts: 3 Status: Offline

Yeah they actually put some missles on the tops of the wings and on the empenage Thumb

....It was just with lasers and locking on to simply test the maneuverability compared to the 15s. I dont know the logistics of it, I'm just a private pilot but thats what the colonel at the local air force base in Tucson said at an air show.

15 f-15s against one raptor and the raptor came out on top huh? What was the ROE (rules of engagement.) for that excerise.
What support did each side have?
Those questions are VERY important to answer before you go bragging about a raptor beating any aircraft.

Newbie Joined: Jun 26, 2008 Posts: 13 Status: Offline

The only way the F-16s would win is if they were in visual range and they had a JHMCS with Aim-9x...

Newbie Joined: Jul 01, 2008 Posts: 3 Status: Offline

danhutmacher wrote:

15 f-15s against one raptor and the raptor came out on top huh? What was the ROE (rules of engagement.) for that excerise.
What support did each side have?
Those questions are VERY important to answer before you go bragging about a raptor beating any aircraft.

I think your overanalyzing the whole thing. they all took off, went to a MOA either in Arizona or Cali, spread out beyond radar range and started a search and destroy type of mission to test the radars against each other, then they brought them all into a dogfight senario to test maneuverability. I wasnt 'bragging about the raptor beating any aircraft', I was saying what happened, and with the results its easy to talk it up. Its hard to imagine there is any plane out there that has the all around capabilities the F22 possesses, and with the worlds best airforce backing it up, I would feel very confident taking it into war and being able to handle anything that may come up.

it sounded like you where bragging to me. Everybody knows that the things that count in A2A are pilot training, tactics, GCI and ECM support.

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