Forum: F-22A Raptor

I'm very tempted to deleted the off-topic posts. Get this back on topic or they will be.

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hcobb wrote:

The problem with launching an AMRAAM is that it is a rocket and so IRST can see it from a long ways off.

If the launch occurs in the IRST's limited field of view. At long range, an IRST's FOV is like looking through a straw..

arkadyrenko wrote:

SpudmanWP - the problem for the IRST and AAMs is not the detection range when the missile in the terminal approach, instead it is the launch signature. For example, the F-35 DAS, effective less than 60 nm against fighters I think, can see a Falcon space rocket launch from 800 nm away! That should show the consequence of shooting an missile vs one that's cruising.

An AMRAAM produces quite a bit different signature, than a Falcon space rocket, and for only a relatively brief period.

wrightwing wrote:

If the launch occurs in the IRST's limited field of view. At long range, an IRST's FOV is like looking through a straw..

Unless you have SAIRST. The F-35 has spherical coverage. The F-22s would be almost as good, if the Raptor had decent software. (Ada is dead, ADA doubly so.)

So EODAS for F-22B clearly.

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solut ... targeting/

hcobb wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

If the launch occurs in the IRST's limited field of view. At long range, an IRST's FOV is like looking through a straw..

Unless you have SAIRST. The F-35 has spherical coverage. The F-22s would be almost as good, if the Raptor had decent software. (Ada is dead, ADA doubly so.)

So EODAS for F-22B clearly.

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solut ... targeting/

The detection range, even with SAIRST, is going to be significantly less against an AAM, than a TBM(or bigger). Just as an example, an afterburning jet, will have a much larger IR signature, than an AMRAAM, and from the frontal aspect, you'll be lucky to spot that at 50nm(much less an AAM).

Remember that with 5th gen, you never have just one sensor.

You've got a swarm of on and off board sensors running track before detect and when the uncertain tracks from multiple sensors converge, kill it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track-before-detect

hcobb wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

If the launch occurs in the IRST's limited field of view. At long range, an IRST's FOV is like looking through a straw..

Unless you have SAIRST. The F-35 has spherical coverage. The F-22s would be almost as good, if the Raptor had decent software. (Ada is dead, ADA doubly so.)

So EODAS for F-22B clearly.

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solut ... targeting/

The F-22 already has 360 degree spherical coverage with its ALR-94 system and six AAR-56 missile launch detectors. The ALR-94 in particular is why the F-22 was considered not to need something like EO-DAS. It can already track and even provide targeting solutions on anything that emits radio frequency energy beyond 250 miles. EO-DAS was a cheaper way to give the F-35 something approaching the F-22's capability, not the other way around.

You are confusing equipment and capabilities.

The F-22's ALR-94's capabilities are replicated in the F-35's AN/ASQ-239 (eg they are both ESM systems). While the -94 is likely more capable than the -239, it does not do IR as EODAS.

The F-22's AN/AAR-56 is it's MLD which closely matches the F-35's AN/AAQ-37 EO-DAS. It shares the -37's six camera setup but does not provide video or tracking of anything but missiles. With further development this can change.

Below are two vids that demonstrate the the -56 itself is capable of a video feed, but the F-22's CIP does not currently integrate the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUj3JTe1nVI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVrdQhYQI1M

LM has stated that they have been working on adding short ranged airborne tracking of targets other than missiles.

Quote:

Lockheed Martin continues to advance threat warning systems with the development of both high-resolution and multi-spectral sensor variants and an expanded algorithm base that incorporates situational awareness and defensive infrared search and track.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/MissileLaunchDetector.html

SpudmanWP wrote:

You are confusing equipment and capabilities.

I think we're just cross-talking on the definitions. To me:

Capability: 360 degree spherical awareness.
Provided by: F-22=ALR-94; F-35=EO-DAS.
Mechanisms: F-22=Detection and triangulation of RF/microwave signals; F-35=Infrared imaging.

Capability: Missile warning.
Provided by: F-22=Probably mostly AAR-56, supplemented by the ALR-94 (most missile shots on the F-22 are of necessity going to be infrared-guided and won't alert the ALR-94); F-35=Probably a mix of the ASQ-239 and EO-DAS.
etc.

The ALR-94 can provide 360 degree awareness, plus firing solution grade tracking information, beyond 250 miles, while remaining 100% passive. Obviously it's only good against emitting targets, but for an air dominance fighter, that's what matters. (Or if they don't emit to save themselves from the F-22, they're blind and it's a mission kill anyway, even if the F-22 does't just take them out using LPI radar.) While it contains some of the ALR-94's technology, I've never heard it said the ASQ-239 can provide anywhere near the F-22's level of electronic intel, nor a firing solution for the AMRAAMs. The ALR-94 is also said to be hideously expensive and complex to do what it does; it's not a system compatible with the low end of the hi/low mix. (As an aside, I've seen reasonable speculation the ALR-94 actually can see somewhat into the THz infrared; the distinction between microwave and infrared is not one hard and fast frequency number. Yes or no, it's not likely a very powerful, long-ranged, or accurate capability, and it's definitely not going to be pictures, at best just locations and motion vectors. Mostly a matter of semantics.)

In contrast, the EO-DAS provides 360 degree awareness and target solution grade tracking information via infrared imaging. It also provides real-time 360 degree video so the pilot can "see through the plane." I seriously doubt it can detect a cruising, subsonic fighter anywhere near 250 miles out, but almost certainly it can provide a firing solution on an enemy beyond the range where anything else can get a firing solution on the F-35. It also has significant advantages over the ALR-94 against ground targets, is great for enhancing carrier-based and STOVL landing capability, and is much cheaper, which are all more important for a versatile "low" cost strike fighter to be procured in large numbers for a wider variety of end users.

Anyway, my basic point is, the F-22 doesn't "need" the capability of 360 degree spherical awareness because the F-22 already has it. It's a different form of awareness than EO-DAS, but still well suited to air dominance specifically. That's why putting EO-DAS on the F-22 has never been a priority.

river_otter wrote:

SpudmanWP wrote:

You are confusing equipment and capabilities.

I think we're just cross-talking on the definitions. To me:

Capability: 360 degree spherical awareness.
Provided by: F-22=ALR-94; F-35=EO-DAS.
Mechanisms: F-22=Detection and triangulation of RF/microwave signals; F-35=Infrared imaging.

Capability: Missile warning.
Provided by: F-22=Probably mostly AAR-56, supplemented by the ALR-94 (most missile shots on the F-22 are of necessity going to be infrared-guided and won't alert the ALR-94); F-35=Probably a mix of the ASQ-239 and EO-DAS.
etc.

The ALR-94 can provide 360 degree awareness, plus firing solution grade tracking information, beyond 250 miles, while remaining 100% passive. Obviously it's only good against emitting targets, but for an air dominance fighter, that's what matters. (Or if they don't emit to save themselves from the F-22, they're blind and it's a mission kill anyway, even if the F-22 does't just take them out using LPI radar.) While it contains some of the ALR-94's technology, I've never heard it said the ASQ-239 can provide anywhere near the F-22's level of electronic intel, nor a firing solution for the AMRAAMs. The ALR-94 is also said to be hideously expensive and complex to do what it does; it's not a system compatible with the low end of the hi/low mix. (As an aside, I've seen reasonable speculation the ALR-94 actually can see somewhat into the THz infrared; the distinction between microwave and infrared is not one hard and fast frequency number. Yes or no, it's not likely a very powerful, long-ranged, or accurate capability, and it's definitely not going to be pictures, at best just locations and motion vectors. Mostly a matter of semantics.)

In contrast, the EO-DAS provides 360 degree awareness and target solution grade tracking information via infrared imaging. It also provides real-time 360 degree video so the pilot can "see through the plane." I seriously doubt it can detect a cruising, subsonic fighter anywhere near 250 miles out, but almost certainly it can provide a firing solution on an enemy beyond the range where anything else can get a firing solution on the F-35. It also has significant advantages over the ALR-94 against ground targets, is great for enhancing carrier-based and STOVL landing capability, and is much cheaper, which are all more important for a versatile "low" cost strike fighter to be procured in large numbers for a wider variety of end users.

Anyway, my basic point is, the F-22 doesn't "need" the capability of 360 degree spherical awareness because the F-22 already has it. It's a different form of awareness than EO-DAS, but still well suited to air dominance specifically. That's why putting EO-DAS on the F-22 has never been a priority.

The F-22 currently has 360deg spherical multispectral coverage, with the AAR-56, in addition to the ALR-94 ESM coverage. It's just that prior to being upgraded, the AAR-56 wasn't useful against fighters. Once upgraded, it'll provide the F-22 the same spherical launch capability as the F-35, especially when it gets the -120D/9X load out.

wrightwing wrote:

The F-22 currently has 360deg spherical multispectral coverage, with the AAR-56, in addition to the ALR-94 ESM coverage. It's just that prior to being upgraded, the AAR-56 wasn't useful against fighters. Once upgraded, it'll provide the F-22 the same spherical launch capability as the F-35, especially when it gets the -120D/9X load out.

I thought the AAR-56 integration as more than a MAWS was still off in the future. If it's already done I'm glad.

No it is not done and the F-22 does not have 360 SA unless the enemy is emitting. This means that the F-35 has better 360 SA (both IR and EW) than the F-22 (only EW SA).

Actually there is nothing preventing them from adapting the IIR logic of the EODAS to the AAR-56.

LMT is already working on that so it is only a matter of receiving more funding for future upgrades.

SpudmanWP wrote:

No it is not done and the F-22 does not have 360 SA unless the enemy is emitting. This means that the F-35 has better 360 SA (both IR and EW) than the F-22 (only EW SA).

Spherical coverage against incoming missiles- now
Spherical coverage/HOBS against fighters- once upgraded

Forum: F-22A Raptor

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