F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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alloycowboy
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Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 02:45 AM
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Senior member

Joined: Oct 26, 2010 - 09:28 AM
Posts: 467
Location: Canada
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@hb_pencil...... Why do I get the feeling your the bean counters bean counter?
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Posted: May 26, 2012 - 11:50 PM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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maus92
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Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 04:09 AM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: May 21, 2010 - 06:50 PM
Posts: 646
Location: Annapolis, MD
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hb_pencil wrote:
maus92 wrote:
hb_pencil wrote:
maus92 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:
maus92 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:
Logical?
Yep. F-35 reprogramming is for technical reasons, not for strategic / budgetary reasons - although money *might* be saved. Being the third restructure in as many years in news in itself.
By what leap of logic did you come to the conclusion that a 200 aircraft reduction 'might' save money? Bar napkin math makes that a ~20B savings within the FYDP.
What 200 aircraft reduction? The total buy has not been changed as of today.
As Quicksilver noted in his final words, its the savings "within the FYDP." Panetta really only concerned with the next ten years as he needs to meet the sequestration cuts mandated by the Budget Control Act until 2021, and that requires year by year cuts between 2013 to 2021. $20 billion in savings is not much, but its something.
OK, they are delaying the expenditure of funds by not purchasing aircraft that will need significant modification in the future. But the fundamental reason for the reduction in funding is technical, and not to reduce the rate of growth of the defense budget. That effect is coincidental. No plan has been expressed to reduce the eventual buy of aircraft, although if costs cannot be contained, that is a possibility.
I think you're ascribing alot of motives when its impossible to do so. Its not coincidental either. In my years of work, I've very rarely seen a policy decision be made due to only one factor like you're suggesting. This one is no different, particularly when Defense has been mandated to cut 600 billion over the next decade. Cutting concurrency planes will slow the rate at which the military can field the fighter... which is a critical consideration too. It will however decrease costs in the years where DoD is hardest hit by the sequestration cuts.
IF this was purely technical, then they would not have cut back over 120 aircraft. 60~90 or so probably would have been enough, depending on future progress and QLRs. Its going to delay the introduction into operational service by one, if not two years.
I wrote an extensive post going into this here. I know I wrote it before the cuts were announced, but it explains their importance to the budgetary mandate.
I am suggesting that reason for VADM Venlet's recommendation to reprogram the purchase of LRIP jets is because of the instability of the design which he feels will result in significant technical and financial risk. There is no reason to believe that his opinion was influenced by the need to slash the growth of defense spending. I will agree however, that politicians - including the SecDef - might take advantage of the situation and use any short term *savings* to achieve their goals. |
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hb_pencil
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Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 07:45 AM
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Senior member

Joined: Aug 18, 2011 - 10:50 PM
Posts: 275
Status: Offline
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maus92 wrote:
hb_pencil wrote:
I think you're ascribing alot of motives when its impossible to do so. Its not coincidental either. In my years of work, I've very rarely seen a policy decision be made due to only one factor like you're suggesting. This one is no different, particularly when Defense has been mandated to cut 600 billion over the next decade. Cutting concurrency planes will slow the rate at which the military can field the fighter... which is a critical consideration too. It will however decrease costs in the years where DoD is hardest hit by the sequestration cuts.
IF this was purely technical, then they would not have cut back over 120 aircraft. 60~90 or so probably would have been enough, depending on future progress and QLRs. Its going to delay the introduction into operational service by one, if not two years.
I wrote an extensive post going into this here. I know I wrote it before the cuts were announced, but it explains their importance to the budgetary mandate.
I am suggesting that reason for VADM Venlet's recommendation to reprogram the purchase of LRIP jets is because of the instability of the design which he feels will result in significant technical and financial risk. There is no reason to believe that his opinion was influenced by the need to slash the growth of defense spending. I will agree however, that politicians - including the SecDef - might take advantage of the situation and use any short term *savings* to achieve their goals.
Look, I don't want to be denigrating, but I think you have a very superficial impression about what being a program manager entails: budget is what you're there to manage as well as delivery time and capabilities. If you're told to cut 20%, then you cut 20%.
And that's particularly true for David Venlet, who even said this fall that no Pentagon weapons project should “feel it’s insulated or it’s above being looked at.” It would be extremely unusual for Venlet NOT to be consulted about what might be possible to cut, especially given the profile of a project like this.
And as I suggested earlier, the way that Venlet undertook these cuts suggests there is a budget motive behind this. The Ahern Concurrency report recommends that "future decisions about the F-35 concurrent production be event driven, based on the achievement of sufficient test data to support increased confidence in design..." It does not suggest cutting ALL Concurrency jets to their minimal level and a significant number of full rate production types. Thats suggests budget driven imperatives, because the department wants clarity in how its budget will look in the next ten years time.
A technical approach would look very different. They probably would have no change in the projected buys, but negotiate purchases year by year based on the program's progress in development. Truth be told I think thats what they have been doing regardless. However Budget priorities now have carved away that option.
As Bismarck once remarked, Policy is like a sausage. ITs a mess of intents and purposes. Absolutely technical challenges created the opportunity for this cut, but how it was undertake indicates that budget considerations also played a major role in how they were undertaken. |
Last edited by hb_pencil on Jan 06, 2012 - 08:04 AM; edited 1 time in total
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hb_pencil
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Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 08:03 AM
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Senior member

Joined: Aug 18, 2011 - 10:50 PM
Posts: 275
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alloycowboy wrote:
@hb_pencil...... Why do I get the feeling your the bean counters bean counter?
Honestly? I'm not a budget specialist... though I've worked to build that area of competency because its one of the critical ways programs are managed. Program management is my interest however... how acquisition programs are run and the issues that affect them. |
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quicksilver
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Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 12:00 PM
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Senior member

Joined: Feb 16, 2011 - 01:30 AM
Posts: 267
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maus92 wrote:
hb_pencil wrote:
maus92 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:
maus92 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:
Logical?
Yep. F-35 reprogramming is for technical reasons, not for strategic / budgetary reasons - although money *might* be saved. Being the third restructure in as many years in news in itself.
By what leap of logic did you come to the conclusion that a 200 aircraft reduction 'might' save money? Bar napkin math makes that a ~20B savings within the FYDP.
What 200 aircraft reduction? The total buy has not been changed as of today.
As Quicksilver noted in his final words, its the savings "within the FYDP." Panetta really only concerned with the next ten years as he needs to meet the sequestration cuts mandated by the Budget Control Act until 2021, and that requires year by year cuts between 2013 to 2021. $20 billion in savings is not much, but its something.
OK, they are delaying the expenditure of funds by not purchasing aircraft that will need significant modification in the future. But the fundamental reason for the reduction in funding is technical, and not to reduce the rate of growth of the defense budget. That effect is coincidental. No plan has been expressed to reduce the eventual buy of aircraft, although if costs cannot be contained, that is a possibility.
So, let's make a reduction across the FYDP of 120 jets a la the Politico report (said cuts you regarded as 'minor' -- see your post under the 'Panetta...' thread). How much are the concurrency projections? Let's assume $1B (what Super Hornet Correction of Discrepancies has totaled roughly for 10 years). Are you suggesting that they're taking $12B out of the FYDP to avoid a $1B problem? |
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maus92
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Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 06:09 PM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: May 21, 2010 - 06:50 PM
Posts: 646
Location: Annapolis, MD
Status: Offline
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hb_pencil wrote:
maus92 wrote:
hb_pencil wrote:
I think you're ascribing alot of motives when its impossible to do so. Its not coincidental either. In my years of work, I've very rarely seen a policy decision be made due to only one factor like you're suggesting. This one is no different, particularly when Defense has been mandated to cut 600 billion over the next decade. Cutting concurrency planes will slow the rate at which the military can field the fighter... which is a critical consideration too. It will however decrease costs in the years where DoD is hardest hit by the sequestration cuts.
IF this was purely technical, then they would not have cut back over 120 aircraft. 60~90 or so probably would have been enough, depending on future progress and QLRs. Its going to delay the introduction into operational service by one, if not two years.
I wrote an extensive post going into this here. I know I wrote it before the cuts were announced, but it explains their importance to the budgetary mandate.
I am suggesting that reason for VADM Venlet's recommendation to reprogram the purchase of LRIP jets is because of the instability of the design which he feels will result in significant technical and financial risk. There is no reason to believe that his opinion was influenced by the need to slash the growth of defense spending. I will agree however, that politicians - including the SecDef - might take advantage of the situation and use any short term *savings* to achieve their goals.
Look, I don't want to be denigrating, but I think you have a very superficial impression about what being a program manager entails: budget is what you're there to manage as well as delivery time and capabilities. If you're told to cut 20%, then you cut 20%.
And that's particularly true for David Venlet, who even said this fall that no Pentagon weapons project should “feel it’s insulated or it’s above being looked at.” It would be extremely unusual for Venlet NOT to be consulted about what might be possible to cut, especially given the profile of a project like this.
And as I suggested earlier, the way that Venlet undertook these cuts suggests there is a budget motive behind this. The Ahern Concurrency report recommends that "future decisions about the F-35 concurrent production be event driven, based on the achievement of sufficient test data to support increased confidence in design..." It does not suggest cutting ALL Concurrency jets to their minimal level and a significant number of full rate production types. Thats suggests budget driven imperatives, because the department wants clarity in how its budget will look in the next ten years time.
A technical approach would look very different. They probably would have no change in the projected buys, but negotiate purchases year by year based on the program's progress in development. Truth be told I think thats what they have been doing regardless. However Budget priorities now have carved away that option.
As Bismarck once remarked, Policy is like a sausage. ITs a mess of intents and purposes. Absolutely technical challenges created the opportunity for this cut, but how it was undertake indicates that budget considerations also played a major role in how they were undertaken.
I don't consider your expression of opinion to be denigrating. You seem to be one of the more thoughtful posters in this forum. Anyway, my day job as a project manager forces me to be intimately familiar with budgetary machinations, and the pressures that are exerted from above (my weekend job being much more fun.) I take your point about the depth of of the *cuts* being more than what appears necessary based upon information that has been publicly released. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that there are undisclosed considerations that played into his recommendations. Until then, what I express here is what I can substantiate.
BTW, I haven't seen anything official about a 120 jet cut/delay. The number came from a Reuters article referencing a "Virginia-based defense consultant Jim McAleese said he expected the Pentagon to defer production of well over 120 F-35 fighter planes until later years, cutting the cost of the program by about 25 percent over that time period." |
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