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maus92
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 Posted: Dec 23, 2011 - 09:50 PM
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Forum Veteran
Joined: May 21, 2010 - 06:50 PM
Posts: 646
Location: Annapolis, MD
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| I hadn't really considered the costs with converting the refueling system to the boom system. But since they can use their KC-767's two wingtip probe and drogues systems, could they not refuel two F/A-18's at the same time, while limited to only one F-35A on the boom? Kidding.... |
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Sponsor
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 Posted: May 26, 2012 - 11:43 PM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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popcorn
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Posted: Dec 23, 2011 - 09:54 PM
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Elite 1K
Joined: Sep 24, 2008 - 09:55 AM
Posts: 1179
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| Isn't it standard practice for the losing bidders to be debriefed by the customer? There doesn't seem to be any indication that Boeing or EFGmbH will contest the award but perhaps we may learn more details in the coming days. |
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maus92
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Posted: Dec 23, 2011 - 10:13 PM
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Joined: May 21, 2010 - 06:50 PM
Posts: 646
Location: Annapolis, MD
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quicksilver wrote:
maus92 wrote:
popcorn wrote:
Also, this bid was the first competitive bidding situation the F-35 participated in. It's clear that its price is in the same ballpark as its Gen 4 competitors as the JSF program and LM have been claiming all these years. The JSDF jets will be LRIP jets so the F-35s will be even more price competitive once they start building them in quantity.
Hopefully, this puts an end to all talk about buying multiple legacy jets for the price of one F-35 or upgrading legacy jets with all sorts of bells and whistles while still being significantly cheaper than the F-35.
Not sure how you came up with the pricing data - is there documentation out there, or is it just speculation? The only numbers I've seen is $122M per - clearly more than a SH. The Japanese were prepared to buy F-22 - they are not shy of spending the big bucks....
There has clearly been some public spin on the matter of SH costs. GAO said in 1996 that the average recurring flyaway cost of a SH over a 660 aircraft buy at 36/yr was $53M ($82.9M FY2011) -- and that was before the addition of any Blk 2 capability enhancements necessary to make it competitive with an IOC JSF. Similarly, is the quoted $122M JSF number an average URF over a given total buy number? Not likely since that is close to the URF for Lot 3 alone based on program actuals (believe there is an Amy Butler article that discusses).
The $122m number - which really should be $127m - is strictly for the 4 LRIP 8 jets, and who knows what is and isn't reflected in that number. The total deal for 42 jets is reported to be between 4 and 8 billion dollars, depending upon the source, converting to a unit procurement cost between $95m - $190m per jet. Clearly the numbers are way too fuzzy atm. The low end is a competitive $95m UPC F-35A to ~$82m UPC F/A-18E/F, while the upper end is clearly not. |
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batu731
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Posted: Dec 24, 2011 - 01:06 AM
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Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 24, 2010 - 12:26 AM
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| Which variant is Japan going to buy? A or B? I think they should buy both since they are getting a few LHD-sized carriers as well, it could also a be valuable endorsement to the much troubled B program. |
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SpudmanWP
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Posted: Dec 24, 2011 - 01:35 AM
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Elite 3K
Joined: Oct 12, 2006 - 08:18 PM
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Location: California
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| The initial order (for 42) is for the A. |
_________________
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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quicksilver
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Posted: Dec 24, 2011 - 02:46 AM
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Joined: Feb 16, 2011 - 01:30 AM
Posts: 267
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maus92 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:
maus92 wrote:
popcorn wrote:
Also, this bid was the first competitive bidding situation the F-35 participated in. It's clear that its price is in the same ballpark as its Gen 4 competitors as the JSF program and LM have been claiming all these years. The JSDF jets will be LRIP jets so the F-35s will be even more price competitive once they start building them in quantity.
Hopefully, this puts an end to all talk about buying multiple legacy jets for the price of one F-35 or upgrading legacy jets with all sorts of bells and whistles while still being significantly cheaper than the F-35.
Not sure how you came up with the pricing data - is there documentation out there, or is it just speculation? The only numbers I've seen is $122M per - clearly more than a SH. The Japanese were prepared to buy F-22 - they are not shy of spending the big bucks....
There has clearly been some public spin on the matter of SH costs. GAO said in 1996 that the average recurring flyaway cost of a SH over a 660 aircraft buy at 36/yr was $53M ($82.9M FY2011) -- and that was before the addition of any Blk 2 capability enhancements necessary to make it competitive with an IOC JSF. Similarly, is the quoted $122M JSF number an average URF over a given total buy number? Not likely since that is close to the URF for Lot 3 alone based on program actuals (believe there is an Amy Butler article that discusses).
Rec Flyaway for the 28 F/A-18's purchased in FY2012 is $57.7m each. Allowing for development costs, initial spares, etc. - everything (Procurement Cost), unit cost for FY2012 is $89.6m.
For the total program buy of 556 (complete in FY2014) unit cost is $81.6m. Data came from DoN FY2012 budget, in current dollars.
57.7M GFE only. And a 90M APUC for a jet in production for 10 years (at a 556 jet total) is not a great advertisement. |
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maus92
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Posted: Dec 24, 2011 - 03:45 AM
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Forum Veteran
Joined: May 21, 2010 - 06:50 PM
Posts: 646
Location: Annapolis, MD
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quicksilver wrote:
maus92 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:
maus92 wrote:
popcorn wrote:
Also, this bid was the first competitive bidding situation the F-35 participated in. It's clear that its price is in the same ballpark as its Gen 4 competitors as the JSF program and LM have been claiming all these years. The JSDF jets will be LRIP jets so the F-35s will be even more price competitive once they start building them in quantity.
Hopefully, this puts an end to all talk about buying multiple legacy jets for the price of one F-35 or upgrading legacy jets with all sorts of bells and whistles while still being significantly cheaper than the F-35.
Not sure how you came up with the pricing data - is there documentation out there, or is it just speculation? The only numbers I've seen is $122M per - clearly more than a SH. The Japanese were prepared to buy F-22 - they are not shy of spending the big bucks....
There has clearly been some public spin on the matter of SH costs. GAO said in 1996 that the average recurring flyaway cost of a SH over a 660 aircraft buy at 36/yr was $53M ($82.9M FY2011) -- and that was before the addition of any Blk 2 capability enhancements necessary to make it competitive with an IOC JSF. Similarly, is the quoted $122M JSF number an average URF over a given total buy number? Not likely since that is close to the URF for Lot 3 alone based on program actuals (believe there is an Amy Butler article that discusses).
Rec Flyaway for the 28 F/A-18's purchased in FY2012 is $57.7m each. Allowing for development costs, initial spares, etc. - everything (Procurement Cost), unit cost for FY2012 is $89.6m.
For the total program buy of 556 (complete in FY2014) unit cost is $81.6m. Data came from DoN FY2012 budget, in current dollars.
57.7M GFE only. And a 90M APUC for a jet in production for 10 years (at a 556 jet total) is not a great advertisement.
???? $57.7m is rec flyaway, and not Government Furnished Equipment - take a look at the budget if you can. If not, I'll post the sheet. $82m in current dollars for APUC is much better than F-22, and will be for F-35 as well. |
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popcorn
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Posted: Dec 25, 2011 - 02:48 AM
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Elite 1K
Joined: Sep 24, 2008 - 09:55 AM
Posts: 1179
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Maybe the Japanese asked Boeing how much it would cost to develop that UBER HORNET configuration they displayed in paris a while back and plugged that cost into their evalutions.. obviusly they tried to compare equivalent configurations/capabilites as much as possible..  |
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