Forum: F-35 Lightning II

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

P-51Ds only had one engine choice, V1650 Packard (no competition or alternate engine)
P-80s only had one engine choice, J33-A (no competition or alternate engine)
F-86s only had one engine choice, J47-GE (no competition or alternate engine)
F-100s only had one engine choice, J57-PW (no competition or alternate engine)
F-101s only had one engine choice, J57-PW (no competition or alternate engine)
F-104s only had one engine choice, J79-GE (no competition or alternate engine)
F-4s only had one engine choice, J79-GE (no competition or alternate engine)
F-5s only had one engine choice, J85-GE (no competition or alternate engine)
F-15A/B/C/D/E only had one engine choice, F100-PW (no competition or alternate engine until F-15K)
F-16A/B/C/D only had one engine choice, F100-PW (no competition or alternate engine until Block 30/32)
F/A-18s only have one engine choice, F404/F414-GE (no competition or alternate engine)

Anyone picking up on the pattern here? Until 1984, this competition/alternate engine thing didn't exist for military combat aircraft. I hardly think the market for our aircraft will die without it. Look at the F/A-18.... no alternate engine but still sells!

And while there are fewer engine OEMs today in the US, there are many MANY fewer aircraft OEMs. That's just the way it is.

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

Here are some examples of engine choices / changes (Navy aircraft only)

P-80 Shooting Star : De Havilland Goblin 1(Allis-Chalmers J36), then due to production delays, was changed to Allison J33 (Navy evaluated this aircraft)

FJ-1 Fury (from which the F-86 was developed) : Westinghouse J34, GE J35
FJ-2 Fury : GE J47 (swept wing)
FJ-3 Fury : Wright J65

F9F-2 Panther : PW J42
F9F-3 Panther : Allison J33
F9F-5 Panther : PW J47
F9F-7 Cougar : Allison J33 / PW J48 (swept winged version of Panther)

F7U-1 Cutlass : Westinghouse J34
F7U-3 Cutlass : Westinghouse J46

XF4D Skyray : Westinghouse J40 (unsatisfactory)
F4D Skyray : Allison J35 (interim engine)
F4D-1 Skyray : PW J57

F3H-1 Demon : Westinghouse J40, Allison J71
F3H-2 Demon : Allison J71

F11F-1A Tiger : Wright J65
F11F-1F Tiger : GE J79 (2 built)

F8U-1 Crusader : PW J57
F8U-3 Crusader : PW J75 (3 built)

F-4 Phantom (US models) : GE J79
F-4 UK models : RR Spey

XA3D Skywarrior : Westinghouse J40 (unsatisfactory)
A3D-1 Skywarrior : PW J57

A4D-1 Skyhawk : Wright J65
A4D-3 Skyhawk : PW J52

A-7A Corsair II : PW TF30
A-7E Corsair II : Allison TF41

F-14A Tomcat : PW TF30
F-14B Tomcat : GE F110
F-14D Tomcat : GE F110

Notice how many of these manufacturers are still making tactical jet engines. The point is that competition provides the military with options when a powerplant is not working out, whether for performance, reliability, production, financial, or other reasons.

Competition certainly existed prior to 1984, but not in an "alternative engine" model. In the duopoly that now exists in the fighter engine market, it is essential to keep both manufacturers working on advanced technologies.

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Quote:

F-4s only had one engine choice, J79-GE (no competition or alternate engine)

PW1120?

spazsinbad wrote:

Did not P&W receive a contract recently to investigate improving the F135? I could look for a link but whatever.

Pratt $75 million Pentagon research contract F135 Engine Nov 13, 2011

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... act#208106
OR
http://www.masslive.com/business-news/i ... earch.html

Yes, and the US Taxpayer will be footing the bill. Shocked

The US taxpayer pays for engine CIP contracts for every engine in the inventory. How or why should the F135 be any different?

maus92 wrote:

Here are some examples of engine choices / changes (Navy aircraft only)

P-80 Shooting Star : De Havilland Goblin 1(Allis-Chalmers J36), then due to production delays, was changed to Allison J33 (Navy evaluated this aircraft)

Only the XP-80, X-planes are only for test, like testing different engines before production. The J36 only powered the first XP-80, the second XP-80 was redesigned for the J33, from then on (and all the exports and variants) had the J33 (The CT-133 version of the T-33 did have the RR Nene though this was technically a different aircraft). Hardly an engine alternative or option.

maus92 wrote:

FJ-1 Fury (from which the F-86 was developed) : Westinghouse J34, GE J35
FJ-2 Fury : GE J47 (swept wing)
FJ-3 Fury : Wright J65

Never exported; only had differing engines between redesigns/versions. Not 'alternate' or optional on delivery.

maus92 wrote:

F9F-2 Panther : PW J42
F9F-3 Panther : Allison J33
F9F-5 Panther : PW J47
F9F-7 Cougar : Allison J33 / PW J48 (swept winged version of Panther)

Export to only one other country (mostly second-hand from USN); was 're-engined' but never an alternate or optional engine on delivery.

maus92 wrote:

F7U-1 Cutlass : Westinghouse J34
F7U-3 Cutlass : Westinghouse J46

Not exported; Only had differing engines between redesigns/versions. The -3 Cutlass was "re-engined" to a motor with more power, they weren't alternate or optional.

maus92 wrote:

XF4D Skyray : Westinghouse J40 (unsatisfactory)
F4D Skyray : Allison J35 (interim engine)
F4D-1 Skyray : PW J57

Not Exported; X planes don't count - they're experimental?; "interim engines" are just that, not planned for final versions, and knowing they'll be replaced by the engine specified when it becomes available. The J40 wasn't working out so the J57 was used. (Larger but more powerful) None were alternate or optional on delivery.

maus92 wrote:

F3H-1 Demon : Westinghouse J40, Allison J71
F3H-2 Demon : Allison J71

Not Exported; Engine was only changed after a redesign; (the J40 was only making half the thrust specified) Not an alternate engine or option; the decision to change the engine was due to insufficient power (non-performance).

maus92 wrote:

F11F-1A Tiger : Wright J65
F11F-1F Tiger : GE J79 (2 built)

Not Exported; the F11F-1F Should have started YF or XF, This was not an alternate engine it was a redesign of the aircraft with more powerful engines.

maus92 wrote:

F8U-1 Crusader : PW J57
F8U-3 Crusader : PW J75 (3 built)

Not Exported; again the F8U-3 should have started with YF or XF. This again is a major redesign of the aircraft with a larger engine, not an alternate engine program.

maus92 wrote:

F-4 Phantom (US models) : GE J79
F-4 UK models : RR Spey

The ONLY F-4 Models that had RR Spey were UK Phantoms, this was all done at the UK's expense on just the UK Phantoms. There were 10 foreign users of the Phantom and only 1 (the UK) chose to use a 'domestic' engine.

Side Note - If the UK wants to fund the RB??? or EJ??? for their F-35 aircraft let them. For that matter, if they can (and were allowed to) reimburse the US GOV for the F136, I'm all for their F-35B/C having F136-RR-400/600 engines! We can use the $3B to purchase more Lightning IIs for our own military...

maus92 wrote:

XA3D Skywarrior : Westinghouse J40 (unsatisfactory)
A3D-1 Skywarrior : PW J57

Not exported and again X-planes don't count; The J40 prototypes weren't working right so the aircraft was redesigned for the J57. More interesting was the fact the USAF's B-66 used the J71. This could be the closest to a 'production optional' engine in your list, but the services both selected one engine and stuck too it. BTW - The X-21 (Highly modified WB-66) had XJ79-GE-13 engines mounted to the aft fuselage and not under-wing.

maus92 wrote:

A4D-1 Skyhawk : Wright J65
A4D-3 Skyhawk : PW J52

The Skyhawk was highly exported, but the engine was upgraded as part of the A-4E redesign which was actually the A4D-5. (Larger/heavier aircraft) This was not an alternate or optional engine. BTW what of the 150 or so A-4SU 'Super Skyhawks' with the F404-GE-100D engines? (The only country to 're-engine' the Skyhawk at their own expense.)

maus92 wrote:

A-7A Corsair II : PW TF30
A-7E Corsair II : Allison TF41

Exported, but this again was an engine upgrade for a newer version of the aircraft. The USAF wanted the TF41 for a boost in performance in the D model, and it stuck. This wasn't a production option, but was an upgrade that could be performed on older airframes. (like many other aircraft that undergo re-engine programs) Lets not forget the YA-7F (or D+) that was proposed to the USAF to use the F100-PW-220! This program was dropped quickly when the SLUF's wing crack problems were discovered.

maus92 wrote:

F-14A Tomcat : PW TF30
F-14B Tomcat : GE F110
F-14D Tomcat : GE F110

The Tomcat story is a long one but briefly. F401 was taking some time, USN wanted jets NOW, so took the TF30 for the Tomcat-A banking the Tomcat-B would get F401s and then re-engine the A's to B standards. F401 and B were cancelled, (There was only one original B built) The Tomcat-D had the F110-GE-400 by design. This wasn't an alternate engine, it was an engine upgrade for the new version of the Tomcat. Then then the F-14A became the A+ when they were 're-engined' to the F110 themselves; later the USN changed the designation F-14A+ to F-14B. While the Tomcat was exported to Iran, they weren't given an 'alternate or optional' engine, nor were they ever offered F110 upgrades for their fleet.

maus92 wrote:

Notice how many of these manufacturers are still making tactical jet engines.

Lockheed - Still with us
North American - merged w/Rockwell, Rockwell sold to Boeing - Gone
Grumman - sold to Gulfstream, sold to Northrop to become Northrop Grumman - Still with us in name
Vought - sold to Ling-Temco-Vought (LTV), then became part of Northrop, now part of Northrop Grumman - Gone
Douglas - merged into McDonnell Douglas, then became part of Boeing - Gone
McDonnell - merged into.... well see Douglas
LTV - became of Northrop.... see Northrop

So where you started out with 7 aircraft OEMs on your list you're now down to 3. Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrop Gurmman

As for engine OEMs PW and GE remain for the 'high performance military gas-turbines'. Allison was purchased by RR to gain a foothold in North America.

maus92 wrote:

The point is that competition provides the military with options when a powerplant is not working out, whether for performance, reliability, production, financial, or other reasons. Competition certainly existed prior to 1984, but not in an "alternative engine" model. In the duopoly that now exists in the fighter engine market, it is essential to keep both manufacturers working on advanced technologies.

I fully agree that there was competition in the pre-1980s, but that was determined during development, X-plane stage, or Y-prototypes. The engine chosen for the design was often the only option available to the customer unless that engine was failing, or the aircraft was redesigned later and a more powerful motor was part of that plan. This has always been the case. If the F135 was failing it's test program, was grossly overweight, or PW was suffering other 'serious engine difficulties' in the F100 or F119 program; the F136 may be needed. But these things aren't happening. (Besides more countries are choosing the F100 now than F110 given the choice for their Vipers!)

In our current duopoly for engines, both GE and PW are receiving contracts. GE mainly the F110, F404 and F414, while PW produces the F100, F119, and F136. Both companies receive CIP funding to continue their work on contracted engines, and both companies receive R&D contracts to further the US aerospace technological industrial base.

Again, I seriously doubt GE is going to call it quits on their fighter engines, quit receiving CIP or R&D $ from the US GOV.

"Why no Mr Secretary, GE would like to excuse it's self from the billions of dollars in R&D being given to it for ADVENT (Adaptive Versatile Engine Technology), AATE (Advanced Affordable Turbine Engine) and FATE (Future Affordable Turbine Engine) programs; we've decided to only produce civil engines...."

REF: http://uawlocal647.org/upload/Dear%20Colleagues.pdf

Cheers

TEG

discofishing wrote:

Quote:

F-4s only had one engine choice, J79-GE (no competition or alternate engine)

PW1120?

Oh yes, the PW1120 for the Lavi.... also for the Israeli Super Phantom.

It was a test engine program, when the Lavi died the PW1120 died with it. Israel's other thought was to upgrade the Phantom at the same time. This would have made their Phantom and Lavi engines almost common, like the F100s of their Eagles and Vipers. The PW1120 was 70% common with the F100. It also would have given their Phantoms a lot more power to capitalize on the other improvements proposed for the Super Phantom. (Not to mention the possibilities of modernizing other nation's Phantoms and making a bit of money!) This could have endangered Hornet sales, so McD didn't think much of it.

Interesting fact; the PW1120 powered Phantom could exceed MACH 1 without 'burner! Cool

Corsair1963 wrote:

Yes, and the US Taxpayer will be footing the bill. Shocked

(In reference to PW's CIP contract for the F135's continued improvement and development)

Yes, we are still footing the bill for the F100, F110, F101, F108, F118, F119, F404, F414, F135, F402, all them motors that start with "T" and have props or rotors attached... cruise missile turbine engines, drone engines, or pretty much ANY motor pushing a manned or unmanned air vehicle.

Without CIP the engines would have zero OEM support after delivery.

As an 'engine guy' I can tell you that would be a very bad thing. Moreover they should spend MORE money on CIP. Sometimes a few million CIP $$ can save hundreds of millions of $$ in the life of a program. Consider the loss of just a few airframes over a program's life... All over a CIP task to replace a single part or modify a daily engine maintenance procedure. When engines get to be 10, 20 or 30+ years old, they demand a little more attention than the OEM (Or US MIL) ever dreamed they'd need.

Cheers

TEG

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

F136 is dead