F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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spazsinbad
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Posted: Oct 31, 2011 - 07:36 PM
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Elite 3K

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Sponsor
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Posted: May 26, 2012 - 9:02 PM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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quicksilver
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Posted: Oct 31, 2011 - 11:13 PM
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Senior member

Joined: Feb 16, 2011 - 01:30 AM
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| Anyone know what the JPO response might have been? |
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maus92
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Posted: Nov 01, 2011 - 01:10 AM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: May 21, 2010 - 06:50 PM
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johnwill wrote:
1st503rdsgt wrote:
johnwill wrote:
I spent forty years working for GD and LM at Fort Worth and can assure you every employee I knew worked as hard as possible to build a quality product at the lowest possible cost.
Apologies for the cynicism. Your accomplishment is nothing to be sneezed at nowadays. 40-year jobs in the manufacturing sector seem to be in short supply in modern times. Hats off to the people who knew how to do it right.
Now, a couple of questions:
1. Did you notice any change in corporate culture between GD and LM?
2. Do you think that the comparative lack of interest in the F-16 (contrasting with the F-35) was an asset to the program?
I ask because, in the course of my research, it seems that the less interest/excitement a weapon system generates (ie. Congress/military brass/media), the more likely it is to come in reasonably on-time and on-budget. Apparently, there weren't nearly as many people wanting a piece of the Viper because the USAF was rather cold on such a "bare-bones" concept at the time. The Superhornet could also be held in similar regard due to the mere fact that it looked almost the same as the F/A-18C/D, despite the fact that it was really a totally new plane. Things just tend to go smoother when fewer people are interested/involved.
Apology accepted.
(1) Corporate culture means different things to different people. Yes, there are differences certainly, and for the worse in my book. But my opinion isn't based on a fair comparison. All of my work since LM bought GDFW was off-site in Asia until retirement. I have lots of younger friends who still toil away there, and I don't hear much that's very encouraging. GD was a great place to work, with talented, dedicated pros at every level. LM has mostly shuffled aside those pros and installed LM people from other divisions, many of whom had little experience building modern airplanes. That was also a problem with the F-22 at Marietta. LM had no experience building modern airplanes. Many of the F-22 engineers were transferred from Fort Worth, and much of the engineering work was done in FW.
Be that as it may, there is still a lot of unjustified criticism of the F-35.
(2) Because the F-16 of the day was a very simple airplane, it sailed through development without any serious problems, as you know. There was nothing for the skeptics to attack. Was that an asset to the program? I don't think so, but it really made it a more pleasant work environment not to hear almost constant criticism in the press, some of it valid. The most difficult area was manufacturing, not because of complexity of the product, but for the need to setup three assembly lines and ten different versions in three different countries simultaneously.
One reason some in the AF were cool to the F-16 was the threat it posed to the precious F-15.
A closer comparison to the F-35 criticism environment was for the multi-service F-111. I don't know how much if any you know of those late '60s days, but to hear constant criticism, even from the local newspaper (as today) was depressing. That airplane admittedly had some severe problems, but to me the F-35 seems to be doing exceedingly well in meeting its performance goals. Granted, its development time and cost are exasperating, but that's nothing new. Criticism of its purchase and operating cost seem premature to me.
Very interesting perspectives. |
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spazsinbad
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Posted: Nov 01, 2011 - 07:56 AM
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Joined: May 05, 2009 - 10:31 PM
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Pentagon Tester: JSF F-35 Program Risking a "Serious Mishap" by Nick Schwellenbach, October 31 2011
http://battleland.blogs.time.com/2011/1 ... us-mishap/
"The Pentagon's top official for weapons testing sent a sternly worded letter warning the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program and the Air Force that their plans to start unmonitored flight training on the Air Force variant of the JSF F-35 this fall "risks the occurrence of a serious mishap," according to an October 21 memo..."
[http://www.pogo.org/resources/national-security/dod-memo-concerns-regarding-jsf-operational-utility-evaluation-training-flights.html]
...Director of Operational Test and Evaluation Michael Gilmore explained that due to the relatively small amount of monitored flight hours on the JSF (and an even smaller amount on just the Air Force version of the plane), along with a higher abort rate than expected at this point in the program, indicates "the relative immaturity of aircraft." When the test office ran the numbers, they found the Air Force variant had an air abort rate "equivalent to 3,000 aborts per 100,000 flight hours" triple the rate the JSF program itself believes is prudent before unmonitored flight training begins....
...The testers, using a historical model with data from the JSF program plugged in [what about F-35 'health monitoring'? - does not that count?], project "at least four ground aborts and four air aborts, including one in-flight emergency" if unmonitored flight training begins with the Air Force variant at its current level of maturity....
...But the Air Force and JSF don't agree, saying that they're being careful. They dispute the test office's characterization of risk in a reply to Gilmore's concerns. [http://www.pogo.org/resources/national-security/dod-memo-asc-and-jsfpo-dote-maturity-concerns.html]
"The abort rate and risk of mishap historical data presented in the memo was discussed at length during the 3-star Risk Assessment Board," wrote Vice Admiral David Venlet, head of the JSF program, and Air Force Lieutenant General Thomas Owen in an October 24 memo.
Venlet and Owen then put the screws to Gilmore. "The operational test community participated in this event and was included in these discussions. The board discussed risk acceptance and mitigation in the context of planned training scope and limitations, while also considering the seniority of the initial cadre of pilots," according to the memo by Owen and Venlet. "Those important details are missing from the memo and the PO [program office] and AF [Air Force] offer to engage in a dialogue again on this issue with and the operational test community to ensure that context is understood.".... |
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neptune
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Posted: Nov 02, 2011 - 02:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 24, 2008 - 01:03 AM
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Pentagon Tester: F-35 is Too Risky to Start Flight Training
http://defensetech.org/
.... Historically, jets need 2,000 to 5,000 flight-hours before the number of flight “aborts” due to emergencies gets down to acceptable levels — 1,000 aborts per every 100,000 flight hours.
Now, you can say that the jet is unlike any ever flown or tested before so one can’t accurately predict how many incidents the plane will have — this argument was frequently made in response to projections claiming that the F-35’s operating costs will greatly exceed those of legacy jets like the Navy’s F/A-18s.
....He recommends that the service wait ten months before beginning training. This delay would give the Pentagon time to gain another 1,000 hours or so of flight testing and implement a number of relatively minor safety modifications to the jet ..If the military can’t bear to wait ten months, Gilmore suggests that the service move the six F-35A training jets from Eglin to Edwards AFB in California and start flight training there. He argues that since the California base is the main F-35A test site, it can offer way more support from F-35-maker Lockheed Martin. Oh yeah, and Edwards is “in a sparsely populated area”; meaning the six jets’ “flight operation could begin to demonstrate lower abort rates and less [problem discovery], with substantially less risk to the pilots (and civilians) involved.”
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Yeah, moving the planes, students and their logistical support to Edwards would cost a bunch of cash, especially considering that pilots would need to commute between California and Eglin, where the F-35 simulators are located, acknowledges Gilmore. Still, that cost outweighs the risk of F-35 crashes, states Gilmore.
..The Air Force badly wants to get the six F-35As — some of which have been sitting on the ground at Eglin since July — into the air so that JSF instructor pilots can get ready to start training new students on the jets ASAP. Furthermore, the Marines’ F-35B short take-off and vertical landing variant of the jet is due to arrive at Eglin in a few months ....
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VprWzl
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Posted: Nov 04, 2011 - 04:02 AM
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Joined: Sep 15, 2003 - 04:01 AM
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_________________ Check Six!
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VprWzl
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Posted: Nov 04, 2011 - 04:06 AM
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Quote:
High Hopes for F-35 Training at Eglin: The Air Force is working to address concerns raised by Michael Gilmore, director of Operational Test and Evaluation, regarding the proper time to begin F-35 flight training at Eglin AFB, Fla., senior leaders told members of the House Armed Services tactical air and land forces panel this week. Lt. Gen. Hawk Carlisle, USAF's Deputy Chief of Staff for operations, plans, and requirements, said he is hopeful that a "military flight" can be conducted "at some point in the not-too-distance future" at Eglin. He said the Air Force has presented additional information to Gilmore since he wrote his memo in late October to the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics, outlining what he perceived to be "serious concerns." Carlisle said, "We have a very diligent and deliberate process to do military flight release and airworthiness certificates," though he acknowledged that process has not yet been completed. "Again, it is event driven and we are going through that process very deliberately, and we are addressing all of Dr. Gilmore's concerns."
From http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Pages/HomePage.aspx Daily Report 4 Nov |
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popcorn
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Posted: Nov 04, 2011 - 05:19 AM
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Joined: Sep 24, 2008 - 09:55 AM
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| I expect them to arrive at some sort of compromise well short of the recommended 10 month delay.. |
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