Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Canada's first F-35s won't have built-in ability to communicate in Arctic
By: Murray Brewster, The Canadian Press : Oct/23/2011

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada ... 08093.html

"OTTAWA - Canada's new multibillion-dollar stealth fighters are expected to arrive without the built-in capacity to communicate from the country's most northerly regions...

...Military aircraft operating in the high Arctic rely almost exclusively on satellite communications...

...The F-35 Lightning will eventually have the ability to communicate with satellites, but the software will not be available in the initial production run, said a senior Lockheed Martin official, who spoke on background.

It is expected to be added to the aircraft when production reaches its fourth phase in 2019, but that is not guaranteed because research is still underway...."

Potential solution to above and refuelling issues also at above URL.

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Simple solution. Initial F-35s patrol the southern regions until Blk4 and SATCOM comes online. Leave the norther regions to the CF-18s as they have the SATCOM pod installed already.

The P&D issue was brought up and resolved many years ago.

Sounds simple enough, but where will the budgets come to SLEP CF-18 (according to some Canadian reports... in need of SLEP or replacement ASAP), until a potentially more expensive CF-35 Block IV is delivered and becomes IOC in 2020-2021?? Such challenges and complex decisions are never simple.

A bit off-topic but one additional concept some have contemplated would involve High Altitude Air ship communication/surveilance platforms over western and eastern Canada to stand-in for OTH relays, in case of technical issues ever involving sats as well. Such a technology could conceivably reduce the requirement of tactical platforms for patrol missions and hence LCC budgets as well.

Canada still plans on flying it's current CF-18s into the 2020's as the F-35s come online (so that's not a problem) or did you think that as soon as the first F-35 fly's in Canada that all the CF-18s get retired?

This is note really a black mark against the F-35, but one against Canada. They are a member of the program and knew of the SATCOM issues from the very beginning.

--Edit--

The CF-18's are due for final retirement in 2020. If the SATCOM is a little late, all they need is to cherrypick the best airframes to continue for a few more years till SATCOM is ready.

"A black mark" on Canadian Parliament, Spud? Were they (and US Congress) aware of this issue as well as others recently revealed, last year?

Anyway, supposed CF-18 retirement is estimated to due to begin around 2017 with initial SDD-lot F-35s scheduled to be delivered to CAF starting in 2016. The plan is apparently to operate final CF-18 units until 2020, true, but this might need to be extended a year or two as it would appear at least, awaiting for sufficient number of CF-35s to be delivered and block IV to become IOC. That's where there might conceivably be some additional risk taking (and cost) in further extending the life of CF-18...

On the other note... we'll have to wait and see how the external fuel tank and In flight refueling issue is rectified... if that will also be in a block IV configuration, or somehow funded for a block III phase delivery?

FWIW, I've contemplated whether RCAF would be in better shape to Lease 45-60x buddy-tank-friendly Super Hornets for 8-10 yrs taking deivery starting in 2015 and then phase in a mix of say, 35x F-35 block V starting around 2023, plus a mix of VLO UCAV for long-range next-gen multi-mission patrol? Just my views of course Thumb

Um, last year? I knew years ago that SATCOM was not in Blk3 and that Canada needed to pay for (and the F-35 was designed for) P&D refueling if needed. This is not a new revelation as it was all publicly available information.

What does external fuel tanks have to do with anything we are talking about? P&D refueling, it's working great so far in the B&C and since the A version is exactly the same, I would say that it's a no-brainer. P&D for the A is for any F-35 that wants it (yes part of blk3).

So leasing 45-60 Super Hornets is better (and cheaper) than potentially having to keep a few CF-18s flying past 2020?

--edit--
I did some digging in my program docs folder and the earliest I found mention of SATCOM being post SDD is the Norway Exec Doc (April 2008) where it says "SATCOM (Growth Capability)". This 2008 change from IOC to Post-SDD for SATCOM fits with the timeline involved in finalizing the Blk3 architecture and feature list. Canadian JPO members would have know about that list as they voted on it at the time.

The answer to the F-35A P&D refueling is actually easier. Since the A model has the space reserved and will use the same kit as the C, then it's obvious that it was planned from the very beginning. As to when I first saw public info on this, it was in the May 2009 "International Business Development" brief made by Keith P. Knotts.

Spudman - expect to see Hornets flying in Canada until the mid 2020's in the NORAD role from bases in the north until the initial -35's can be successfully upgraded to a Blk 4 level. The Hornets were delivered all the way up to 1988 and of the 79 upgraded birds 22 of them were procured in '87. When the -35's start coming online, the older airframes purchased prior to approximately '86 will be retired accordingly.

With regards to the P&D refuelling matter, I stopped paying attention when I read this:

Most other air forces in the world have stopped using what's known as a “probe and drogue” connection, opting instead for a plug-in receptacle which connects to a boom on the tanker aircraft.

Guess someone forgot to look into whether the Super Hornet, Rafale, and Eurofighter - all cited as possible alternatives to the JSF - receive their fuel from a boom. I guess that would explain why our CC-150T Polaris aircraft aren't that busy in the Med...right? Rolling Eyes

I'm sick of all the Canuk's bitching. I'm don't see how a lousy 65 plane order is worth having to deal with constant fabrications about the aircraft's price and performance. Let them buy something else if they're so desperate to prove that they aren't American. I would love to watch them struggling to keep 65 Su-35s operational.

That said, I don't think that the Canadian government has much expertise for this kind purchase, and they might not have been fully aware of what they were signing up for. It's kinda sad, like watching a scared, inexperienced city-girl trying to figure out what pistol to buy at the local redneck's gun shop.

I just found an recent article from the Korea Times that definitively answers the whole "What's do I get for $65 million?". I hope this settles it, but I know it won't. Wink

Quote:

Stephen O’Bryan, Lockheed's vice president for F-35 business development: "It includes the engine and all mission systems such as the APG-81 AESA radar, internally mounted targeting system, electronic attack and warfare systems, self-protection systems, infra-red missile warning system, communication and navigation equipment, and the helmet mounted display that is also used as a night vision system".

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/205_97236.html

I think everyone needs to calm down a little bit. There are two different issues at play here. There's satellite comms and there's satellite comms.

I can go down to my local Telco store tomorrow and buy a mobile Iridium sat phone ($1600 upfront cost paid by Telco) and a voice and data plan for about $200 a month for 2 years if I really want. I'm sure the Royal Canadian Airforce could too. A basic capability to send voice and data over the horizon via Sat comms isn't the issue here.

What is the problem, is the lack of SECURE mil-spec Sat comms, plus the software to integrate the secure Sat comm based networking system into the F-35's mission system and integrate this capability withh the rest of the F-35's capability.

As seen with AA-1, the ability for an F-35 to access commercial spec Satcomm capability isn't an issue. I'm sure the Canadians will get by just fine with the less than optimal Sat comm capability for a few years until the full spec system is ready to go.

Look at that funny little white coloured antenna. Looks like a Sat Comm antenna to me. Golly gosh but I read somewhere that F-35 won't have Satcomms until Block IV. Guess no-one told AA-1 that...

1st503rdsgt wrote:

I'm sick of all the Canuk's bitching. I'm don't see how a lousy 65 plane order is worth having to deal with constant fabrications about the aircraft's price and performance. Let them buy something else if they're so desperate to prove that they aren't American. I would love to watch them struggling to keep 65 Su-35s operational.

Our media is mostly comprised of left-wing idiots, simple as that. They wouldn't know the difference between a F35 or F22 if they were sitting in it. They just don't like the idea of their worthless news stories not holding any weight because of the Conservative Majority.

That's just the antenna aperture for the eventual SATCOM. Just like that AA-1 radar dome (or gun blister, or EODAS windows, etc), there is no hardware in it and no radio to drive it (yet).

Interesting info and input, hotramp, thanks. I've been guesstimating at least early 2020s for operating the final CF-18 squadron, but your assessment would better lay out a plausible timeline.

In your opinion then, do you think there's a probability of some form of SLEP being required to keep platforms operating at sustained levels, or are there suitable hours remaining in life (bar no significant call to action between now and the mid-20s)? And would you anticipate any further MLU programs beyond the 2005 upgrades?

I'd further opine with an early to mid 20s block IV baseline critique being the desired variant with regards to likely foreign recapitalization planning interests... delayed as it will be.

Cheers to RCAF and respects to those CF-18 crews - the jets deserve a trophy if they can make it that long. Salute

When did Block 4 become a mid 2020's timeline? You are aware that Blk4 is mostly just software and was originally due to go IOC only one year after Blk3 IOC?

geogen wrote:

In your opinion then, do you think there's a probability of some form of SLEP being required to keep platforms operating at sustained levels, or are there suitable hours remaining in life (bar no significant call to action between now and the mid-20s)? And would you anticipate any further MLU programs beyond the 2005 upgrades?

Simple answer - no. The replacement of the center barrel extends the service life of the aircraft as much as 70 percent. Forty (40) of the existing CF-18's had their center barrel's replaced, which means that, should the planes max out their flight hours each year (never happens), they would be retired in 2020.

The RCAF's current Hornet deployment in support of Op Mobile shows that the Hornets are kept in theatre for about 3 months before they are rotated out and fresh birds from another squadron (in this case 409) come on station, thus ensuring that the hours for each aircraft are kept under excessive levels while still enabling the RCAF to safely fulfill their NORAD defence roles.

The current fleet of aircraft won't be able to sustain any further upgrades, but as they are showing in their current theatre, are quite capable of handling any mission they are tasked with thanks to the IMP upgrades performed.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Canada F-35 Artic Radio Silence - Perhaps