Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Quote:

BY: GREG WALDRON
A major element of this is the F-X III competition to replace more than 60 McDonnell Douglas F-4E Phantoms.

A request for proposals for more than 60 aircraft is expected in February. The shortlist is diverse - Boeing F-15 Silent Eagle, Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, Eurofighter Typhoon and Sukhoi PAK FA (also known as the T-50). Deliveries of the winning aircraft are likely to start in 2016.

Flight Global Article: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ms-362908/

After reading this, I tried to put myself in the position of ROKAF and ask, 'If were them, which would I buy?' From their perspective, I think ground attack capability and survivability would be at the top of the list. From that viewpoint, I think the F-35 (A or B) would be the obvious choice.

On the other hand, the USAF is based in country and will be flying the A in the very near future. So in a sense, South Korea is getting the F-35A, albeit not under their direct control, but through an allied AF. In a war scenario, the F-35 will be assigned the difficult and dangerous penetration missions regardless of who owns them.

Now considering that, I might seriously consider the F-15SE, because it reduces my logistics, maintenance, training and basing costs while delivering a highly capable, high payload multi-mission aircraft that integrates well with my existing F-15K AF.

In a sense, by choosing the F-15SE, I get to have my cake and eat it too. I get both aircraft based in country, the F-35A and the F-15SE. What I lose is that I have no fifth generation aircraft of my own, the data integration and sharing with the USAF units, and the advanced system features of the F-35. However, in another 15 years, I'll be able to buy F-35s when they're relatively cheap near the end of the production run. Tough choice!

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Look at South Korea's delivery date, 2016, that should give a good indicator of which plane they'll buy. The F-35 will have just entered service in the US and production will just begin accelerating. Therefore, for South Korea to get the airplane, it'll have to but into an already crowded initial production run.

It is far better for South Korea to wait on the F-35, until production and development stabilize, and then begin purchases.

Finally, if South Korea gets the F-15SE, they'll have a chance to work with Boeing to build a 5+ gen fighter which fits the needs of South Korea. Whereas, if South Korea gets the F-35, they will not have nearly the same amount of sway with Lockheed.

Did South Korea upgrade their Phantoms with anything at all? It sounds to me like they've been flying stock aircraft for decades now, when other countries have undergone significant upgrades. Very interesting.

I've pondered if ROKAF/SK would be better off 'risk management wise' and longer-term planning flexibility wise, if they actually modified their F-X III Program to more of an F-X 2.5 instead and allow for a revised, better assessed follow-on F-X decision to be made by the end of the decade? I just think this current schedule is out of sequence and out of cadence with making the best decision?

I'd therefore consider as part of F-X 2.5 doing something similar to what both Arkady and Stereospace mentioned, which could be to wait a bit on F-35 and allow it to still be an option down the road once it matures, is proven reliable and is further upgraded. In the meanwhile, the F-15SE might not be mature by 2016 either, so what about a half-sized order of 30 additional upgraded F-15K+ which already has significant industrial offsets and manufacturing base setup for this production? They could start manufacturing this aircraft in 2013, one year earlier and receive first deliveries by 2015 allowing to phase out F-4 that much sooner? A modified F-15K could theoretically include the improved APG-82 radar, which would allow for more effective AEA capabilities as well as superior, extended-range ground surveillance, and could include the DEWS system. It could also potentially retrofit the CWB and inlet blockers by 2015/2016 when they're mature? So sort of an F-15SE-lite one could call it.

The Typhoon is highly impressive though and by 2016 it should have the new AESA and other updates, but the F-15K+ would seem to be a more seamless choice in the interim and one not requiring new logistics and entirely separate training, etc.

Then, perhaps by around 2016 a decision could be made on the remaining F-X follow-on Procurement when Typhoon 3B, F-35, T-50 and SE would likely be fully mature and easier to assess... and who knows, maybe other options could pop up by then too, either manned, or unmanned? Perhaps this second phase of F-X III could merge with the indigenous next-gen requirement as well... it would just seem to allow for wide-open next-gen considerations to be better assessed, when the rapidly emerging technologies and other factors could be more accurately accounted for.

And p.s. to Stereospace... by 2016 the SK - US strategic military deterrence relationship is of course planned to be transitioned away from US 'command', so in fact SK will both own AND command their next-gen Air Force Wink

Upgrade the Phantoms........................no logical reason to do so except to keep some Phantoms flying somewhere!!!!!!!!!!! The sound of those J-79's are music to the ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

Upgrade the Phantoms........................no logical reason to do so except to keep some Phantoms flying somewhere!!!!!!!!!!! The sound of those J-79's are music to the ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, there was a logical reason for the Japanese, Germans, Turks, Greeks, and Israelis to significantly upgrade their Phantoms. I figured South Korea would operate something along those lines.

edpop wrote:

Upgrade the Phantoms........................no logical reason to do so except to keep some Phantoms flying somewhere!!!!!!!!!!! The sound of those J-79's are music to the ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No...reason?? What-
OK. You're officially making no sense whatsoever. I'm a bit of a Phanatic, and even I admit that a vanilla F-4E (RoKAF mothballed their F-4Ds recently) isn't capable of much of anything. They ARE amazingly superior to almost everything the DPRK has, but would require an upgrade program to the tune of the AUP 2000 or Terminator 2020 to be competitive in the modern regime. The AUP 2000 (HAF Peace Icarus) is effectively a Strike Eagle-lite. It's a ridiculously capable aircraft that has been reported to have weapons lock on TuAF Vipers before the Vipers even SEE it.

Quote:

...by 2016 the SK - US strategic military deterrence relationship is of course planned to be transitioned away from US 'command'...

Transitioned to what, joint command? I can't see US air, naval and ground forces under command (other than joint command) of another countries officers.

The comments I made on the Phantom were purely sentimental. I was in Vietnam in 1967 and the Marines flew some close air support for us a few times. There is nothing like the sight of a Rhino coming in at tree top level spitting Zuni's out the front and napalm out the back to warm your heart!!!

Obviously, other countries updated their Phantoms over the years but that was still when the Phantom was still a force to be reckoned with. I know it can still drop bombs and be used as an interceptor but how it would survive in todays environment I am the wrong one to ask.

I will never forget the 1988 London, Ontario air show (the 30th anniversary of the Phantom) where they had about 40 Phantoms on the flight line. Almost every model and nation was represented. And when the show was over and they were all leaving those pilots put on a show I will never forget!!!!!!!!!

Stereo -

Not exactly sure really in what form or extent a future joint command (e.g., coordinated) structure the relationship might, or will operate from... it's probably something that is fluid and likely something that will continue to evolve in the near-time. The point was that the 'track' underway today, is for SK mil to progressively transition to SK command and ownership in the near/mid-term.

Also posted here (scroll down) but worth repeating here - for Korea: Cheers

Canada F-35 Artic Radio Silence - Perhaps
http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... rea#206415

F-35: a game changer in modern warfare 24 Oct 2011 By Lee Tae-hoon

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/na ... 97236.html

"Officials of Lockheed Martin say that the F-35 Lightning II is a game changer in 21st century warfare where most nations are trying to reduce their defense budgets amid a volatile economic climate....

...Stephen O’Bryan, Lockheed's vice president for F-35 business development, claims that it is unrivaled in air-to-surface capability, and is second only to the F-22 in air-to-air capability.

“Using U.S. Government analysis tools and highly accurate and classified data, the F-35 has been shown to be six times more capable in air-to-air engagements than any fourth Generation aircraft,” he said.

Low price to purchase, sustain
O’Bryan stressed that the average unit recurring flyaway cost of the F-35 will be approximately $65 million when measured in 2010 economics....

...O’Bryan noted that though it does not account for annual inflation projections, the $65M price tag includes much more than some media often speculate.

“It includes the engine and all mission systems such as the APG-81 AESA radar, internally mounted targeting system, electronic attack and warfare systems, self-protection systems, infra-red missile warning system, communication and navigation equipment, and the helmet mounted display that is also used as a night vision system.”

He said that many of the mentioned systems are added on to the price of fourth-generation aircraft.

8,000 hour stealth guarantee
Randy Howard, Lockheed Martin’s director of the Korea F-35 Campaign, said that the F-35 was designed from the very beginning to be VLO and its stealth coating is resilient enough that the aircraft's radar cross section will not suffer after numerous day-to-day operations.

“You can even take a knife and hardly scratch the finish of the F-35,” he said.

“Given what we know, it comes with a guarantee of the radar cross section at the end of 8,000 flight hours. It’s essentially guaranteed to be a VLO for the life of the aircraft.”

Howard said even if there is a scratch, there is a tool that allows mechanics to quickly find the impact of the scratch and whether it needs to be fixed....

...He also stressed that the F-35 provides an inherent capability to collect intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) data and perform many of the command and control functions found on traditional high value but vulnerable assets."

I also believe that the ongoing integration of the F-35 with AEGIS will weigh heavily in favor of the Lightning II in both Korean and Japanese fighter evaluations.

Quote:

Low price to purchase, sustain
O’Bryan stressed that the average unit recurring flyaway cost of the F-35 will be approximately $65 million when measured in 2010 economics....

That cannot be correct. I think $65 million is year 2000 dollars or thereabouts.

Nope, the number has been stated many times (even in the latest Fast Facts File) as the average REC Flyaway price of a F-35A (IMHO the FRP average).

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

South Korea weighs options to replace F-4E Phantoms