Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

I think Eurofighter will take it.

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duplex wrote:

The winner is to be announced [Link pending approval]
My prediction is it will be the Rafale

[Link pending approval]

Doesn't India want to run a fighter off carriers too (not sure where I read this, maybe future carriers?)? If that's the case, I can see the only option being the Rafale.

sparky wrote:

duplex wrote:

The winner is to be announced soon..
My prediction is it will be the Rafale

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... weeks.html

Doesn't India want to run a fighter off carriers too (not sure where I read this, maybe future carriers?)? If that's the case, I can see the only option being the Rafale.

I read that too but apart from this the RAFALE seems to be the only plausible choice for India as they have considerable experience with French hardware,their pilots love their Mirage 2000's and the commonality of Rafale with Mirage2000 is the decisive factor. Both fighters have the same suppliers..

duplex wrote:

Both fighters have the same suppliers..

Which is why Rafale is the natural winner. The tender is for Rafale C, not Rafale M. The former is not carrier capable, nor is it necessary to be so equipped. The Indian Navy has already committed to MiG-29K by ordering 45 units and signing up for their 303 squadron pilots to train at the Nitka center, the same place Russians and Chinese navies study carrier operations. Since both India and China are going to be studying from the same center, this will make them presumably equally aware of the operational procedures of their rival.

duplex wrote:

The winner is to be announced soon..
My prediction is it will be the Rafale

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... weeks.html

Based on the article you cite my prediction is that neither fighter will see IAF service.

Quote:

MoD sources indicate that price quoted by both vendors is significantly higher than the Rs 42,000 crore the Union Cabinet cleared for this purchase.

Add to that the deal SA is getting form F-15s. The Indians are anything but stupid. For 20 billion they could get all of this:
84 F-15SA Aircraft
170 APG-63(v)3 Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar (AESA) radar sets
193 F-110-GE-129 Improved Performance Engines
100 M61 Vulcan Cannons
100 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System/Low Volume Terminal (MIDS/LVT) and spares
193 LANTIRN Navigation Pods (3rd Generation-Tiger Eye)
338 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
462 AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVGS)
300 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Missiles
25 Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM-9X)
25 Special Air Training Missiles (NATM-9X)
500 AIM-120C/7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
25 AIM-120 CATMs
1,000 Dual Mode Laser/Global Positioning System (GPS) Guided Munitions (500 lb)
1,000 Dual Mode Laser/GPS Guided Munitions (2000 lb)
1,100 GBU-24 PAVEWAY III Laser Guided Bombs (2000 lb)
1,000 GBU-31B V3 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) (2000 lb)
1,300 CBU-105D/B Sensor Fuzed Weapons (SFW)/Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD)
50 CBU-105 Inert
1,000 MK-82 500lb General Purpose Bombs
6,000 MK-82 500lb Inert Training Bombs
2,000 MK-84 2000lb General Purpose Bombs
2,000 MK-84 2000lb Inert Training Bombs
200,000 20mm Cartridges
400,000 20mm Target Practice Cartridges
400 AGM-84 Block II HARPOON Missiles
600 AGM-88B HARM Missiles
169 Digital Electronic Warfare Systems (DEWS)
158 AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Targeting Systems
169 AN/AAS-42 Infrared Search and Track (IRST) Systems
10 DB-110 Reconnaissance Pods
462 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System Helmets
40 Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receivers (ROVER)
80 Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Pods

The provision for CONUS-based fighter training operations for a twelve (12) F-15SA contingent, construction, refurbishments, and infrastructure improvements of several support facilities for the F-15SA in-Kingdom and/or CONUS operations, RR-188 Chaff, MJU-7/10 Flares, training munitions, Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices, communication security, site surveys, trainers, simulators, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistical support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support.

Neither Eurofighter or Dassault are offering anything close to this. Obviouly the IA does not need the logistical support or CONUS based training facilities so they could easily up the number of aircraft ordered.

You missed the main point dude .India is not interested in buying a US made fighter aircraft so your comparision with Saudi F-15 deal is a joke. One of the main reasons why the Rafale will win this contract is MICA because If India buys the Typhoon they will be dependent on US made AMRAAM's until METEOR arrives.
They don't want it. Because of the very same reason India spurned the invitation to join the F-35 project.

sparky wrote:

duplex wrote:

The winner is to be announced soon..
My prediction is it will be the Rafale

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... weeks.html

Doesn't India want to run a fighter off carriers too (not sure where I read this, maybe future carriers?)? If that's the case, I can see the only option being the Rafale.

Since a navalized Typhoon will never be as good as a Rafale M , they have one more reason to chose the RAFALE over Typhoon. The Rafale is also optimized for nuclear strike.

duplex wrote:

You missed the main point dude .India is not interested in buying a US made fighter aircraft so your comparision with Saudi F-15 deal is a joke. One of the main reasons why the Rafale will win this contract is MICA because If India buys the Typhoon they will be dependent on US made AMRAAM's until METEOR arrives.

At the time the MMRCA is introduced the Meteor should be integrated on Typhoon. I don't think that this is reasonable argument. More convincing are the synergies with the M2k, navalised variant available (but not required by the IAF) and the nuclear strike capability, albeit the ASMP-A is most likely not being offered to anyone. Maturity is another plus for the Rafale. However, the decision is up to the lowest bidder now.

duplex wrote:

You missed the main point dude .India is not interested in buying a US made fighter aircraft so your comparison with Saudi F-15 deal is a joke. One of the main reasons why the Rafale will win this contract is MICA because If India buys the Typhoon they will be dependent on US made AMRAAM's until METEOR arrives.
They don't want it. Because of the very same reason India spurned the invitation to join the F-35 project.

There are ITAR issues with both planes. Eurofighter needed an actual ITAR waiver for the SA deal and Dassault obtained US assurance that there would be no ITAR issues with Rafale in Brazil. But that is a red herring of concern only to Internet speculators and some xenophobic politicians. If the US really wanted to play hardball all they have to do is turn selective availability for GPS on and there goes GPS for whomever they do not want using it.

The issue has always been the willingness to provide ToT both for the planes themselves and other technology items not directly related to the planes like ceramic compressor disk technology. LM, Boeing, GE, Raytheon, etc do not want to give their trade secrets away. Eurofighter, and Dassault along with their subs are willing to do so. Why? Survival.

That said both tenders came in at double the price limit authorized by the Indian government for the MoD to spend. The additional money needs to be approved. That may well not happen and the vendors are not going to do this deal at a loss.

So, now who is missing the point ..... Dude.

So,now who is missing the point ..... Dude.

Its obviously you again..First, the US don't have the guts to play hard ball and use the GPS as an instrument of pressure because the NATO allies would be pissed off something the US can't afford to do and second the US would lose all the other lucrative contracts signed with India such as the P-8i long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft to the Indian Navy in a contract , C-130 J Super Hercules and not to mention the additional C-17's as consolation prize. Yes, the ToT is one of the reasons since US contenders come with barely any ToT, fear of sanctions and making India sign CISMOA and EUMA. When it come to fighter aircraft, India choses the path of independence.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/wh ... icans.html

Last but not least, the US GPS monopoly will end soon as the European Union's more advanced and precise Galileo system will be fully operational until end of the decade.

duplex wrote:

So,now who is missing the point ..... Dude.

Its obviously you again..First, the US don't have the guts to play hard ball and use the GPS as an instrument of pressure because the NATO allies would be pissed off something the US can't afford to do and second the US would lose all the other lucrative contracts signed with India such as the P-8i long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft to the Indian Navy in a contract , C-130 J Super Hercules and not to mention the additional C-17's as consolation prize. Yes, the ToT is one of the reasons since US contenders come with barely any ToT, fear of sanctions and making India sign CISMOA and EUMA. When it come to fighter aircraft, India choses the path of independence.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/wh ... icans.html

Last but not least, the US GPS monopoly will end soon as the European Union's more advanced and precise Galileo system will be fully operational until end of the decade.

Sorry dude. I missed your babble. You have your view and then there is reality. I don't have the time or patience to correct you. Run along to the key forum. They seem to enjoy your sort of .... debate.

While it has absolutely nothing to do with the MMRCA tender, India placed an order for 500 Mica missiles for its Mirage 2000's today. This got me wondering if India is really looking to add another entire family of weapons it needs to support. For AAW alone, they operate AA-12, AA-11, AA-12. Matra Magic, and Mica. Would the Typhoon introduce ASRAAM/IRIS-T and Meteor?

That has to be a complete logistical nightmare in a conflict.

Probably won't have too much of an effect on the outcome, but it definitely could. I'd like to see the Rafale win it, and it seems to have demonstrated greater operational experience in a multi-role capacity, but I definitely wouldn't count Ef out. India has long lasting defense ties with both France and Britain (Sepecat Jaguars, Harriers, the former HMS Hermes, etc.). I'm just ready for them to announce a winner so that I can start dreaming about seeing the IAF's Typhoons/Rafales at Red Flag in a few years Smile

HV

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Indian MMRCA: Eurofighter or Dassault Rafale