Forum: F-22A Raptor

I'd have to say that is a pretty reasonable and balanced Plan B option, given a contingency Plan B if needed.

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Plan B.1:

Upgrade all Cobras to Piasecki version.

Quote:

US Army contract to develop a compound helicopter incorporating the Piasecki Vectored Thrust Ducted Propeller (VTDP) concept for the AH-64 Apache and AH-1W SuperCobra is nearing completion. Programme objectives have been met or exceeded by both the AH-64 VTCAD and AH-1W VTCAD configurations, resulting in increased maximum level flight speed to over 370km/h; 50% improvement in longitudinal acceleration and deceleration capability in level flight; 50% decrease in turn and pull-up radius at speeds in excess of 175km/h; and handling qualities that are at least as good as those of the baseline AH-64 Apache and AH-1W SuperCobra. In addition, tactical simulations have confirmed superiority of VTCAD over standard Apache and AH-1W SuperCobra. A separate US Navy contract involves investigation into application of VTDP technology to the AH-1W(4BW) four-blade rotor configuration. The Navy contract also includes ground testing of the full-scale VTDP and additional flight controls simulation and testing of the 4BW/VTDP configuration. Piasecki has also proposed flight demonstration of this technology on an AH-1W(4BW) to the Navy.

SpudmanWP wrote:

My Plan B:

Replace all CVN based F-18C/Ds with F-18E/F "International Roadmap" versions.

For LHD & LHAs go with OV-10X (with EODAS & DIRCM). I like it better than the others due to better visibility, payload, 2 engines, payload versatility, range potential, survivability, combat insertion & evac capability, etc. Boeing has the tooling so the OV-10X line would not have to be built from scratch.

Yup.

Word is that the USMC would love to have Super (they just can't say it in public). It is a good choice (the two-seater) for giving a hell of a lot of good support for Marines and Block II as-is would solve a lot of their problems. Fly off of a big carrier or when at a base deploy a package as follows-- Harvest Hawk C-130Js (attack, tanker, cargo) 2x , 8x Super Hornet Block II 2-seaters, with lets say 3 buddy refuel kits and 2 SHAPES recon pods. -ATFLIR-- For non-big threat stuff (most jobs) more than good enough. And--networking par excellence.

Oops meant "SHARP"

outlaw162 wrote:

A Marine guy told me the first 'H' in Hoorah is silent.

It's also invisible.

Semper Fi

The F-22 will not be purchased by the Department of the Navy for the Marine Corps for one simple reason: unless we start building 3500ft carriers the F-22 cannot be deployed from the sea.

batu731 wrote:

I don't get why USMC are suddenly so obsessed with cutting edge 5-gen jets? Its not like they are going to deal with the Chinese air force. That's AF/Navy's job.

They need aircraft that can perform CAS/FAC missions, not a very demanding task for current&future UAVs.

It's not the Chinese air force that the USMC has to worry about. It's modern SAMs.

wrightwing wrote:

batu731 wrote:

I don't get why USMC are suddenly so obsessed with cutting edge 5-gen jets? Its not like they are going to deal with the Chinese air force. That's AF/Navy's job.

They need aircraft that can perform CAS/FAC missions, not a very demanding task for current&future UAVs.

It's not the Chinese air force that the USMC has to worry about. It's modern SAMs.

And SEAD is the Raptor's second calling.

elp wrote:

Yup.

Word is that the USMC would love to have Super (they just can't say it in public). It is a good choice (the two-seater) for giving a hell of a lot of good support for Marines and Block II as-is would solve a lot of their problems. Fly off of a big carrier or when at a base deploy a package as follows-- Harvest Hawk C-130Js (attack, tanker, cargo) 2x , 8x Super Hornet Block II 2-seaters, with lets say 3 buddy refuel kits and 2 SHAPES recon pods. -ATFLIR-- For non-big threat stuff (most jobs) more than good enough. And--networking par excellence.

Where is this word coming from? USMC has had repeated opportunities (and pressure) to buy the SH. They have declined because as they've pointed out again and again, the E/F offers little improvement for their mission over what they can do with the C/D and it would cost them a lot more to introduce and operate it. The USN and Boeing would loooovvve for USMC to acquire the SH as it would "validate" their earlier positions, lower the cost of the SH, and let the Navy offload more of its missions onto the Marine Corps budget.

Remember, the purpose of Marine Air is to provide rapid support to the ground troops, preferably as fast as possible. Everything else is secondary.

aaam wrote:

We're getting a bit away from the topic here, but if the Super Tucano, T-6 or OV-10X is thought to be good enough to take over the Marines' CAS role, then it would be equally valid to get rid of the A-10 and buy them for USAF as well.

In reality, although I think the Super T would be an ideal and affordable aircraft for low intensity conflicts against not too heavily armed insurgents, I think handing over either the Marine or USAF CAS mission to those a/c would be a serious mistake

It WOULD NOT be equally valid to get rid of the A-10 for the USAF. The USAF is not as expeditionary as their counterparts in the Marines. I guess with OV-10s they could be. They certainly had both aircraft in inventory for a good while. I wonder why.

Like I mentioned earlier, all the AH-1Z's avionics can be thrown into a Bronco for ease of maintenance and commonality. It has even been demonstrated an OV-10 can be mounted with the same 3-barrelled 20mm gun as the Cobra. That would drive down costs. You'll have flexibility with the Bronco you will not find in other airframes. The Bronco can fly in supplies and then fly out the wounded faster than a helicopter. It can drop paratroopers or hold a large quantity of internal auxiliary fuel for those longer missions. With the gun turret it can orbit an area and provide instantaneous fire support much like a Harvest Hawk or Specter instead of making strafing runs like the Texan or Super Tucano. In the end, the Bronco is actually more likely to pay for itself in shear versatility than other options. Would it be more expensive? Yes, I believe so. However it would be WAY cheaper than buying F-22s, which the USMC does not need at the moment. The Marines need aircraft that can support their troops and their new roll (via MARSOC) with SOCOM.

Question about the F-22. If it were to be purchased by the Marines, I imagine a key requirement would be for a targeting sensor (EOTS?) of some sort. Could an F-22 mount such a sensor in the same manor as an F-35, as in right under then nose? There would not be much ordinance available in the bays, but the wing hardpoints sound like they could carry considerable weapons load.

There was supposed to be an AIRST device similar for the EOTS on the F-35 for the Raptor but it was dropped. It goes to show that at some point they at least were thinking of giving the F-22 a frontal passive imaging sensor. When it comes to CAS I have to reference the one thread about the F-35's potential effectiveness for that role. I don't know how the F-22's datalink capabilities would be compatible with forward air controllers like the A-10 or F-35. It just seems as if the F-22 just isn't well optimized for CAS at all in that regard.

There are 4 wing hardpoints that are each capable of holding 5000 lbs. so indeed the F-22 would make for quite the bomb truck in a permissible environment where stealth isn't needed. Overall I don't really know how effective of a CAS plane the Raptor would be.

Sorry, my Oct 6th pic disappeared from above (damn direct link policy). Here it is.

Here is another thought: Bring back the ARES in a STOL version. I has virtually the same gun as the JSF, massive internal usable volume, great speed, range (1200nm), turning (8g) & stall qualities, good visibility, and it's cheap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG9LlHcX8lg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_Composites_ARES
http://stargazer2006.online.fr/aircraft/ares.htm
http://www.combatreform.org/a10cactusairforce.htm

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Raptors for the USMC?!?