Forum: Program and politics

duplex wrote:

Opting for another model ? who is the lucky guy ?

Either the Typhoon or the Super Hornet.

The Super Hornet with the Silent Hornet/Growler uprgade package is more likely because

1. The Super Hornet was the lowest cost bidder.
2. An American jet, so the US State Department will less likely to balk than a Typhoon selection.
3. The work share for Japanese contractors is good enough at 80%.
4. The Silent Hornet can match the frontal RCS rating of export-model F-35.
5. The Silent Hornet may be used with Japan's forthcoming STOBAR/CATOBAR carrier.

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Please stop with the whole "export model" of the F-35. As you and others have been show, there is no difference, especially in the RCS.

You're just embarrassing yourself.

slowman2 wrote:

duplex wrote:

Opting for another model ? who is the lucky guy ?

Either the Typhoon or the Super Hornet.

The Super Hornet with the Silent Hornet/Growler uprgade package is more likely because

1. The Super Hornet was the lowest cost bidder.
2. An American jet, so the US State Department will less likely to balk than a Typhoon selection.
3. The work share for Japanese contractors is good enough at 80%.
4. The Silent Hornet can match the frontal RCS rating of export-model F-35.
5. The Silent Hornet may be used with Japan's forthcoming STOBAR/CATOBAR carrier.

Japan defence chief 'may cancel' F-35 deal
Quote: Japan's defence chief said Wednesday the country may cancel its $4.7 billion order for the US-built F-35 stealth jet if Washington fails to stick to the proposed price and deadlines.

But, he told parliament: "If the situation comes to the point where (the US) cannot work out the proposal by that time, we will have concerns for Japan's defence capability.

"We would have to look at either cancelling the contract or opting for another model."

http://news.xin.msn.com/en/regional/art ... id=5944609

Depends on how to read this: "We would have to look at either cancelling the contract or opting for another model."

Secondly, this kind of talk often has been used as no more than political pressure.
Even most level partners have been using this kind of pressure, but no one has left the F35 project.

F35 deal, till so far, $4.7 billion: all in, $111.9 million per F35 (42)
Ask Australia what a Growler will cost them … a lot more than a F35A!

o THE Federal Government will spend more than $200 million to transform six air force fighter jets into hi-tech electronic warfare planes.

o Australia purchased 12 Super Hornet fighters wired for the Growler upgrade during the production process at a cost of $35 million.

o The RAAF purchased 24 Boeing Super Hornet fighters under a $6 billion deal with the US Navy to fill the gap between the retirement

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/nati ... 6277576058

Why in hell would Japan want to fly with a 4the generation jet till 2050/2060, when at that time already 6th generation jets will probably fly (when manned)?
Something like flying with a F84 generation versus a F16 generation.

This region becomes very important, they just can’t afford next decades flying with a 4th
generation jet against 5th generation Chinese and Russian 5th generation jets.

Every generation has been followed by a next generation, within some time 4th generation jets will play no significant role anymore or are ready for museums.
In 2050 4th generation jets are basically from developments of the 70th, 70-80 years old, competing with US, Chinese and Russian 5th generation jets.

Airforces flew a P-51 or Spitfire and 30 years later with a F15/F16. Progress did not stop with a 4th generation jet.

Japan did want the F22, not that strange, they preferred the F35 instead as a 5th generation jet.

The only option for Japan, the F22 is not available for other countries.
Although they would have liked the F22, not available for Australia as well.

slowman2 wrote:

The Super Hornet with the Silent Hornet/Growler uprgade package is more likely because

4. The Silent Hornet can match the frontal RCS rating of export-model F-35.

There is no export model F-35 first of all, and secondly, there's nothing that you can do to a Super Hornet, to lower its RCS down to the F-35's level.

'm' says: "...Although they would have liked the F22, not available for Australia as well." This idea was never an Australian Government or RAAF Official idea. Only APA promote the F-22 for RAAF and the Labor Opposition before they gained government. RAAF do not want an expensive single role aircraft - F-35A multi-role is what they want.

spazsinbad wrote:

'm' says: "...Although they would have liked the F22, not available for Australia as well." This idea was never an Australian Government or RAAF Official idea. Only APA promote the F-22 for RAAF and the Labor Opposition before they gained government. RAAF do not want an expensive single role aircraft - F-35A multi-role is what they want.

Thanks correcting spazs, had to write, some in Australia (APA) would have liked the F22

Fair enough - no worries. APA have a megaphone, with help from Australian Media because they (APA) create unwarranted controversy and therefore help sell more newspapers with their sloganeering headlines.

spazsinbad wrote:

Fair enough - no worries. APA have a megaphone, with help from Australian Media because they (APA) create unwarranted controversy and therefore help sell more newspapers with their sloganeering headlines.

I don’t understand why they (APA) came up with the idea of the F22?

As far as I know, the US always has claimed this technology is only available for the US.
Australia, as well as Canada, are the most close partners of the US (special relation).

May be … but still, I doubt the F22 could have had become available for Australia?

Gr. M

m wrote:

Why in hell would Japan want to fly with a 4the generation jet till 2050/2060,

Because the F-35 doesn't stand a chance against the J-20.

You notice that Japan is now upgrading A2A capability of its F-15Js and F-2s with upgraded AESA radars and IRST to counter stealth jets.

Quote:

This region becomes very important

If the US considered the region to be important, then it would have sold F-22s to Japan and Korea, under the condition that they would be based in the USAF bases and be serviced by the USAF staff.

But no, the F-22 was denied, which left Japan and Korea searching for their own solutions. Japan's solution was F-3, but that's now canned due to a budget problem and the F-15J will be turned into a Japanese Golden Eagle fitted with anti-stealth radar and IRST. The Korean solution is the KFX, which is going ahead with an aggressive IOC target date of 2021.

slowman2 wrote:

Because the F-35 doesn't stand a chance against the J-20.

Care to back that up with credible data?

Nevermind, it does not exist.

SpudmanWP wrote:

slowman2 wrote:

Because the F-35 doesn't stand a chance against the J-20.

Care to back that up with credible data?

Nevermind, it does not exist.

From what we can assume thus far, that's like claiming that the F-16 doesn't stand a chance against the Su-24...

m wrote:

F35 deal, till so far, $4.7 billion: all in, $111.9 million per F35 (42)
Ask Australia what a Growler will cost them … a lot more than a F35A!

It's pretty clear that LM will not be able to hit $111.9M "all in" deal, considering that the latest USAF budget estimate puts the Gross Weapons System Cost (an "all in" figure) at $122.5M in FY2017 (the most favorable year.) And this figure does not reflect the probable upward adjustment due to the postponement of 179 jets in the most recent restructure. The DAB report due in March will clarify the cost situation.

$112 mil average is very achievable considering the gutting to the LRIP production schedule that the Japan order would partially heal. Compare last year's budget projections to this year's (FY2012 to FY2013) and you will see why the LRIP slowdown was such a BAD idea.

SpudmanWP wrote:

$112 mil average is very achievable considering the gutting to the LRIP production schedule that the Japan order would partially heal.

Japan's 42 unit order is not enough to make up for the he loss of 179 units for the US armed forces and the additional cuts from the partner nations.(Italy just cut 40, and more to follow). The price estimation did spike from the promised $122 million unit flyaway price and this is why the Japanese defense minister is talking about cancelling the F-35 selection for another jet.

Japan used to be price-insensitive, but the current budget strain caused by the 230% national debt and the Northeast reconstruction funding changed all that. Now the Japanese government shops used weapons and jump the chair at the slightest cost increase. So unless the US government agrees to stick with the original pricing proposal by eating the cost differences, Japan will have to flee from the F-35 and go sign a deal with Boeing instead.

Forum: Program and politics

F-35s for Japan