Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Same here, the Japanese wanted to replace the F-4s pretty quickly, and with JSF first delivery already barely clinging only 2016, it makes no sense to purchase that airplane right now.

I think, all things being equal, Japan may go with the Eurofighter. Its a better air superiority platform than the F-18, it gives the Japanese a bit of diversification for its fighter purchases, and I bet that Europe is even more desperate than Boeing to get Japan as a customer.

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arkadyrenko wrote:

Same here, the Japanese wanted to replace the F-4s pretty quickly, and with JSF first delivery already barely clinging only 2016, it makes no sense to purchase that airplane right now.

I think, all things being equal, Japan may go with the Eurofighter. Its a better air superiority platform than the F-18, it gives the Japanese a bit of diversification for its fighter purchases, and I bet that Europe is even more desperate than Boeing to get Japan as a customer.

Hmm.. And when will the last Typhoon be delivered? 2020? Ten years later there is not a single Typhoon flying in the UK anymore. fazed out in 2030.
Ordering a Typhoon, not that clever from that point of view

At that time Russia, China, India, US, Australia, Canada, Israel, UK & some European countries and etc. all will all be flying with 5th generation jets.

@ m:
Not a single Typhoon flying in the UK in 2030?

Source please.

Maks wrote:

@ m:
Not a single Typhoon flying in the UK in 2030?

Source please.

Quote:

The UK has begun investigating the feasibility of extending the Eurofighter Typhoon's fatigue life beyond its nominal 6,000 flying hour limit. The move would prolong the availability of the Royal Air Force's early-build aircraft and extend the type's designated out-of-service date beyond 2030.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... fe-331483/

Well, if Japan buys the Typhoon, then can always replace it with the F-XX program, whenever that is launched. Right now, Japan needs to replace its outdated F-4 fighters. If the program wants fighters in a few years, then they'll have to accept second best. This is the trade-off that the Japanese leadership needs to make, and I can understand it going either way.

Put bluntly: Typhoon / F-18 now (really 2 years or so) versus JSF in an indeterminate period of time

There is nothing saying that a purchase of the Typhoon or F-18 means Japan won't buy the F-35. Japan probably will buy the F-35 in the future, but there is no reason to join the program as its current shape is still quite challenged.

What is important is the fact that the scale of the problems revealed in the latest report had not been widely known. For one, the news about the level of DAS problems and the tail hook's non-performance seemed to surprise many here. Combined with the report's suggestion that the problems won't be fully known until 2014 (when the flight envelope is fully explored) and fully fixed, using the 18-24 month timeline, by 2015 / 2016 at the earliest, this puts the idea that Japan will get their first JSF's in 2016 very much in doubt.

The question is: Did the JSF program office, and Lockheed, inform Japan about these problems? If the answer is yes, than there is no reason for Japan to change its mind. If the answer is no, than Japan will have all the reason in the world to go back and completely rethink its decision. Given that the JSF program was, just this week, reporting that all was good to Australian press suggests that it may not have been as forthcoming to Japan as would be proper. In that case, Japan has to count themselves lucky that this report came out before they made their decision. Furthermore, Japan would have the right to be furious at the US / JSF Program Office / Lockheed for decieving them about the status of the program.

In either case, the fact that Japan has decided to delay their decision suggests that the latest report has caused some second guessing in their defense ministry.

Maks wrote:

@ m:
Not a single Typhoon flying in the UK in 2030?

Source please.

One of some sources: RAF

Quote: A total of 53 Tranche 1 aircraft were delivered, with Tranche 2 contract provisioning for 91 aircraft. 24 of these were diverted to fulfill the RSAF export campaign, leaving 67 Tranche 2 aircraft due for delivery to the RAF. The Tranche 3 contract has been signed and will deliver 40 aircraft. With the Tranche 1 aircraft fleet due to retire over the period 2015-18, this will leave 107 Typhoon aircraft in RAF service until 2030.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/typhooneurofighter.cfm

Thanks for the links. As so often, much depends on how you interpret the statements.

Maks wrote:

Thanks for the links. As so often, much depends on how you interpret the statements.

You are right, it depends on how it can be interpreted. Found this about retirement of the Typhoon in 2030:

UK National Audit Office. 2 march 2011
Ministry of Defence
Management of the Typhoon Project

Page 21: Quote: The Department is also planning to retire its 53 oldest Typhoons by 2019 and subsequently operate a fleet of 107 aircraft until their retirement in 2030.

Full report (PDF - 433KB)

The JASDF are a professional and competent bunch. I don't see any reason to doubt they did the necessary due dilligence in their evaluation of the 3 contenders. To presume otherwise is unwarranted and actually insulting to the Japanese.

I might add a comment to popcorn (to defend all potential buyers of the F-35) as mentioned quite a few times now on this forum by others, that governments do not buy from opinions garnered from internet forums. Responsible people see a lot of documentation and the like which we will never see. Or not - if the 'hackers' release it on wikileaks. Sure people are entitled to their opinions but to take that opinion as the truth seems to me to be ridiculous. Yes all of us here lack information but I can see how knowledge accumulates. 'There is a lesson in that for all of us'. Very Happy

And yes to make claims of fraud/incompetence and suchlike from a position of ignorance seems rather petulant eh. Incompetence is likely because we all make mistakes - if you'all commit fraud then why are you not locked up? Get to it. Devil

arkadyrenko wrote:

In either case, the fact that Japan has decided to delay their decision suggests that the latest report has caused some second guessing in their defense ministry.

According to this report, Japan will announce its decision on Dec 21, and it states, "industry analysts and media reports state with certainty that Tokyo has opted for Lockheed Martin Corp's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)"

Report: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/ML20Dh01.html

Quote:

The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) had four key criteria: the performance of the aircraft and its weapons; price; the participation of domestic firms in production and repairs and after-sales maintenance support from the manufacturers. Regarding performance criteria, the MoD has been focusing on stealth, kinematic performance and information-processing capabilities.

The government has likely chosen the F-35 as it scored the highest out of 100 points across these categories.

...

Lockheed Martin said in an e-mail interview to Asia Times Online. "US government analytical models show that when flying against an advanced threat aircraft the F-35 is six times better than 4th Generation F-16, F/A-18 and Eurofighter aircraft."

Japan must go with the F-35 if it is to remain viable in the future against the mounting Pac Rim threats.

I wonder if Japan will continue to pursue its indigenous stealth fighter initiative? The only thing certain about that is it will cost an arm and a leg if the F-2 program is any indication. Even Japan has a limit to how much it can spend and perhaps there are more F-35 orders down the road once the F-15s and F-2s need replacing. It would make life a lot simpler and cheaper having a single platform to operate and sustain.

Their long term goal is an indigenous F-22 class fighter, not an F-35 class. The ATX-D is a prototype on the small scale, but the goal is to extrapolate what they learn into a much larger stealth plane.

Quote:

Japan agrees to buy F-35 fighters to replace aging jets

The Associated Press

Date: Monday Dec. 19, 2011 9:50 PM ET

TOKYO — Japan's government says it has selected the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighter to bolster its aging air force.

A Cabinet spokesman says the defence ministry will buy a total of 42 fighters starting next fiscal year, which begins in April.

Japan wrangled for years over whether to buy the F-35, Boeing F-18 or the Eurofighter Typhoon. Japanese officials took into account the quality of the plane as well as close U.S.-Japan military ties, said Noriyuki Shikata, deputy Cabinet secretary for public relations.

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/2011121 ... z1h523ZDb0

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

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