Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Ok, this is just Scuttlebutt. However, I bumped into an old Navy buddy of mine who now does QA manual work for Boeing. We are both Airplane nuts, as one would generally be, if registered on this forum.

Anyway, he said he has noticed something odd going on at Boeing, in F-22 branch that manufactured the wings. He siad he wrote up a QA procedure for checking a "new" layup procedure that has already been developed for a "redesigned/upgraded" wing skin for the F-22.

The obvious question is, why would one redesign the F-22 wing if the plane is out of production?

The scuttlebutt is, there is a very quiet internal look at a more advanced reengineering of the entire airframe of the F-22. Initially, it was thought to be a part of the possible F/A--XX project, but isn't. The rumor is, the F/A-XX project is actually turning into a redesign of a more advanced F-22. The idea, is that advancing the existing airfame is far more cost effective, since the airframe is stellar in performance to begin with. Somewhere on the order of 70% cheaper than designing something from scratch. Thus, it would be redesigned and ready for production within only 2-3 years from now, vs. 15-20 years from now.

The newer nano-fiber carbon composites that are being incorporated allows for a total airframe weight reduction of as much as 4 tons!!. That's a serious diet. Losing over 8,000lbs and yet actually increasing the airframe strength and integrity is not really unheard of when you see the stress stats on these new carbon composites. The original composites were designed back in the 80's.

Lockheed is also apparently doing this on their own, in quiet cahoots with Boeing.

I guess the idea is kind of like the S-97 helicopter development. If THEY build it, the Army (or in this case, Air Force) will then buy it. vs. Give us money to develope it, and we'll try to come up with something.

Apparently, the idea here is that stopping F-22 production wasn't such a bad thing. It has given them a chance to now quietly work on a newer F-22 Raptor-X (or whatever they want to call it), which will be far more capable.

From what he told me, these new QA manuals would be useless for the existing F-22, but would apply to some advanced version of it, because the materials are differant. He said the new QA manuals were in a state of rewrite, and to be completed by the end of 2012.

The idea from what I understand, is to complete a comprehensive overhaul and engineering upgrade of the airframe, and be close to mock up completion by the end of 2012, and ready for prototype production. Who knows, maybe the next administration will actually look at restoring the program.

The other objective to achieve a production cost equal to or less than the current soring F-35, by doing this on their own, vs constantly having government oversight causing further delays and cost over runs. Just like the S-97 development. Basically, they're just letting the engineers go at it, and have fun with it. Kind of like the way the A-10 came about. They just let engineers build something, based on what the combat specs were, and the top brass and politicians just stayed out of it.

As a result, we all know how the A-10 turned out. The friggin' Ruskies hated that God aweful thing back in the 80's.

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Wow, this is exactly what I was talking about over on the other thread.

http://f-16.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2 ... ht=#203037

None of the 6th generation air-superiority concepts I've read about strike me a much better than an updated/unf#cked F-22, which would be a hell of a lot cheaper than a whole new design; but as the Russians say, "we will live and see."

Bwahahahaha!!!!!! This (in an odd dose of reality) was actually one of Kopp's suggestions- and a danged reasonable one at that. I wonder if we could use THESE babies to replace the F-15s in a few years, and cascade the 'old' Raptors to ANG, and with the country's politics moving further and further right (and I mean RIGHT!)...possibilities, possibilities... Very Happy

On another note, I am psyched. Combat aircraft design un-f@&!ed-up by bureaucracy is generally beneficial to all involved. Including, most importantly, the guys and gals flying these birds.

southernphantom wrote:

Bwahahahaha!!!!!! This (in an odd dose of reality) was actually one of Kopp's suggestions- and a danged reasonable one at that. I wonder if we could use THESE babies to replace the F-15s in a few years, and cascade the 'old' Raptors to ANG, and with the country's politics moving further and further right (and I mean RIGHT!)...possibilities, possibilities... Very Happy

On another note, I am psyched. Combat aircraft design un-f@&!ed-up by bureaucracy is generally beneficial to all involved. Including, most importantly, the guys and gals flying these birds.

I don't really know about that guy; his ideas about what can be done with the F-22 seem a little far-fetched. I think naval and bomber versions of the airframe might be reaching a bit too far. I hope LM and Boeing can keep the modifications to a minimum, fixing only what's wrong/missing with the current design while adding a strong SEAD capability before restarting production. Of course, this is all pure rumor and will probably never happen. Sad

Why would you build the current F-35 if F-22C was available for the same cost? Because it's fiction.

Because you can't make export sales off the F-22.

On topic, an interesting theory if true.

madrat wrote:

Why would you build the current F-35 if F-22C was available for the same cost? Because it's fiction.

Well, he certainly didn't indicate they were "building" any. However, there is alot of testing going on with all these new nano-fiber composites, which are known to be 30% lighter by volume, and as much as 50-100% stronger, depending on how it's layed up, and which matrix is used.

My guess, i sthe F-35 is in fact going to be put into full production, as planned, sans a few due to budget cuts. An advanced F-22 is something I understand they are considering, and may actually build a prototype demonstrator after completing a mockup in about a year or so.

That's just what he kind of indicated, but keep in mind, even he didn't know exactly. he's just a book worm who writes QA procedures. he's not a design engineer. so, he has no real inside info, other than what we can produce by "conjecture" based on his assignments.

Is it fiction?

Well, it may very well be. I honestly can't say either way. Due to cost of creating a whole new 6th Gen airframe, it does kind of make sense though. Especially since based on current economy and funding, it would be alot cheaper, and could get done alot faster.

Oh, and he gave no indication it was some kind of varient, like a naval or bomber version. It is basically, the same plane, ie, he was just writing up new inspection requirements for new lay-up procedures using more advanced composites for the same design, thus strengthening and lightening the entire airframe. So, I really don't think it a whole new version. Just the same 'O plane but with new pair of pants.

madrat wrote:

Why would you build the current F-35 if F-22C was available for the same cost? Because it's fiction.

1. Same price.. in their dreams
2. F-22 needs a redesign to handle ship-board ops
3. F-22 needs 2k weapon capability in order to replace F-35C

Last edited by 1st503rdsgt on Sep 10, 2011 - 06:41 AM; edited 2 times in total

condor1970 wrote:

So, I really don't think it a whole new version. Just the same 'O plane but with new pair of pants.

With a few avionics/weapon improvements (IRST, HMCS, cheek-arrays and JDRADM), that would be good enough to restart production in lieu of a 6th generation USAF fighter. I don't think any one expects the F-22 to be navalized. A later block F-35C will probably have to serve as the USN's next fleet-defense platform.

It is an interesting theory and plausible next-gen upgrade program to existing F-22 airframes. They couldn't really 'replace' additional legacy airframes as such, because by definition the existing 80-85x block 35 capable F-22 airframes have already essentially replaced (or slotted to replace by default) 50+ F-117s, plus the entire 600+ F-15A-D fleet. That's a helluva tradeoff and risky demand to be put on a pre-maturely killed but still under-development, next-gen 5th gen airframe.

And I definitely support and advocate the Joint Boeing-LM assembly and cooperative production work on all next-gen aircraft projects - something wich is crucial and needs to be expanded on. My proposal has gone beyond this one though, in fact to study plausibility of what could be called an 'MM-35 (multi-mission)' evolution of the F-35C frame? It would need to be jointly/cooperatively developed and produced as such, to be sustainable and viable as a program imho. That would be your poor-man's plan B F/A-XX alternative which could also be operational ahead of schedule, plus at a discount. Hence, any such 're-skinning and evolving' the F-22 per se would merely be consistent in keeping the F-22 viable and updated as necessary through it's life-span, revising it to the real-world and fixing early-on 'mistakes', etc.

In that scope, who wouldn't love to see what Boeing could also do under a next-gen F-15 re-engineering program (as an interim supplement to the pre-maturely killed F-22 force structure) Wink

I think you've been had Condor. Why? Because it all makes far too much sense.

But if it is genuine and you're not being had then that is excellent news for enthusiasts and the USAF.

geogen wrote:

And I definitely support and advocate the Joint Boeing-LM assembly and cooperative production work on all next-gen aircraft projects - something wich is crucial and needs to be expanded on.

So no competition thereby ensuring that they can write their own pricetag?

This would be great if true.
Careful choice of equipment could make it easily exportable.
I wonder if maybe they're thinking about an FB-22, there is money floating around for a next generation bomber.

Well it’s a cool story if there is some truth to it. I don’t see how replacing just the skin would shave 4 tons; replacing most of the load bearing structures which are Ti might. The problem is is that this is basically a new aircraft and would require full certification. Undoubtedly they would update the avionic architecture which would further increase time and costs. Maybe LM are, however, looking at a more limited update that wouldn’t require a full recertification. I would be for this as long as it doesn’t impede on the 6th generation Next Gen Tacair program that the USAF just submitted a RFI for.

The USAF needs a more advanced approach to air dominance in the 2030 timeframe and the F-22 will not meet those requirements such as broadband all aspect VLO, range and persistence (aimed at pacific theater ops), avionics (net-centricity and machine-human integration) and most likely directed energy weapons. Clearly this platform will work very closely with the new LRS platform and be integrated into the new LRS program architecture working hand in hand with the other platforms. I’m all for building another wing or two of F-22s but we need to move forward on a new jet.

^^^ That's just it. Now, granted the QA he was writing up was for the Boeing part, which is wings. However, he did mention that they are testing alot of the new nano-fiber composites, which are turning out to be stronger than Titanium. Yes, you heard that [Link pending approval] STRONGER than Titanium, and capable of handling and dissipating high temperatures.
Once again this is conjecture, but the idea is to also use these new materials only recently developed to replace some of the airframe that uses alot of titanium, to significantly drop the weight, and increase strength.

Now, I read a coupl eyears ago in one of our engineering magazines, that Boeing is working with Dow Chemical on a Carbon nano-fiber using a forged liquid Titanium matrix. The idea was for use in the commercial airliners of the future, like the BWB, in order to be able to mould large wing/airframe sections quickly, and be stronger than traditional metal framework which is generally machined.

Now, we can only speculate that this new technology may be what is being considered as an internal airframe upgrade for the F-22. Once again, that's only conjecture.

However, being able to mould large sections of the F-22's airframe with a new nano-Carbon-Ti matrix composite, would undoubtedly drop the overall weight of the aircraft be thousands of pounds. So, it would be conceivable. Doing so, also cuts cost dramatically, because the layup procedures today are far more advanced, than what it was riiginally designed to be back inthe 80's-90's for the original airframe. The mass production capabilities for carbon composites now is far less expensive than it used to be, mainly because time has gone by, and the technology, and knowledge is advanced dramatically.

The new nano-fiber fabrics can handle temps upwards of 3000F. The problem has always been the matrix. Epoxies can only handle temps upwards of 800F, but something like a Titanium matrix of some sort, would allow for composites to then reach the high temps and low weight they are looking for.

Like I said though, I honestly don't know anything other than the QA manuals are being rewritten for new layups of far more advanced composites, but for the same aircraft. Which is odd.

That's pretty much why I labled the whole thread "Scuttlebutt". because that really is all this [Link pending approval] just rumors and conjecture based on only ONE known fact. And even that can be questioned, since obviously no one on here even knows who heck I am. HA. However, I wouldn't waste this much of my time typing if I felt my friend was [Link pending approval]'ing me. He has always been a guy with alot of integrity.

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As far as the redesign goes. I know nothing about it, or what it entails. I assume since the airframe is essentially the same, I doubt it some kind of FB-22 version. However, one would logically deduce that minor changes to possibly make the weapons bay more capable, or provide more room internally for more advanced gear in the future, seems to make sense. I'm not sure if the airframe could ever be made to carry 2000lb ordnance, simply because it is just so big. However, maybe some mods to accept future weapons that are smaller and smarter, is more or less the idea.

Anyway, that's about as far as I can go with this, because I honestly know nothing else. Everything else is just fun to talk about.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Scuttlebutt!!!