Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Hey guys, I was reading a media report saying the new Russian stealth fighter T-50 can defeat the F-22A. Can you guys clarify this.

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In the right circumstances on the right day a pilot in a Piper Cub with a 30 caliber rifle can defeat an F-22...

So the technical answer to your question would have to be; Yes...

Nice troll by a first time poster... Rolling Eyes

Either Russian or Indian media I presume.....what else would you expect them to report?

airmaster11 wrote:

Hey guys, I was reading a media report saying the new Russian stealth fighter T-50 can defeat the F-22A. Can you guys clarify this.

Is this a serious question? Laughing

The Russians will say anything to sell their garbage to the rest of the world. None of this changes the fact that this is a thoroughly lazy design, essentially a superficially modified Su-27. A sad testimony to the rot that a once great scientific nation has descended into. The F-18E and F-15StrikeE will still be electronically superior and the F-35 with F-22 are generations ahead of anything the Russians are making right now.

pushoksti wrote:

The Russians will say anything to sell their garbage to the rest of the world.

Actually, I've read comments from the prototype's own makers about exactly what they believe its strengths AND weaknesses are. They said, for example, that it's more maneuverable and cheaper but not as stealthy.

From what I know from elsewhere, I believe them. They don't have the our prior experience with stealth, but they do have more than our experience with thrust vectoring and have taken the concept farther than it's been taken in F-22. Also, I can spot some visible traits on the prototype myself that seem to emphasize maneuverability and not stealth, just based on my limited unprofessional knowledge of airplane design, including at least one pretty easily visible trait that directly trades one off for the other.

To "more maneuverable", we might also be able to add "better acceleration, rate of climb, top speed, and/or ceiling". This is based on an Australian article about the Russian prototype which said its flight performance characteristics are better than anything else around. I don't remember the source's name and am wary because I know that some Australian sources have been known to quite simply lie about 5th-generation planes before and have an ax to grind against F-35, and this article's focus was indeed to make a case that the USA should let other countries buy F-22s and Australia should take that option instead of F-35s. Since then, I've also read that the Russians have had trouble with their engines and have generally been behind us in engine performance for a while, upon which all of the traits I mentioned in this paragraph depend. So, maybe the T-50's not so great there.

But I'll grant them outstanding engine performance just for the sake of argument, and still say F-22's better, because stealth is more important than that and the Russians are well behind us in sensors and pilot interfaces. (...although in a hypothetical future war, it wouldn't be hard for the production version of this prototype to be available in much larger numbers than the supply of F-22s that will ever exist.)

In general usually, there needs more elaboration:

Is such a contest being pondered involving the best of 10 rounds of 1v1? 2v2? 4v4? Tactics, capabilities and odds would likely differ and change accordingly? Which actual weapons will be employed?

And of course, which increment F-22 are we considering? Which year would this hypothetical 'DACT' contest if you wish, be conducted? 2016? 2025, involving a new-build T-50 with latest system uprades and components vs an older F-22 airframe, albeit still hypothetically awaiting it's final MLU funding? etc, etc..

airmaster11 wrote:

Hey guys, I was reading a media report saying the new Russian stealth fighter T-50 can defeat the F-22A. Can you guys clarify this.

Yes I can clarify that the media does write a lot of **** particularly on subjects they dont have a clue about.

But perhaps maybe this time they are right - no one including them knows the actual capabilities of either aircraft ( one is not even in service !) - so perhaps its a good guess.

Bang Head

No need to.
One files, the other does not. Very Happy

The T50 is a brochure airplane. And as far as its world beating Russian TVC technology- how many operational TVC aircraft does the Russian Air Force have compared to the US? Who really has the most experience with TVC technology? Contrary to popular internet fanboy wisdom, TVC has been flown on many research and prototype aircraft in the US reaching all the way back to the early 1980s, yet for some reason, the Russians seem to get all the credit...
As far as the T50's 5th generation engines giving it better WVR....what engines? So far, the T50 doesn't and won't have a real 5th gen engine for a long time, and once this empty, flying tin can gets real avionics and mission equipment, it is going to weigh 44,000 lbs++ empty. Any bets on which aircraft, T50 or F22, is going to have the better TWR?
BTW, did anyone notice the lazy flying display it put on at MAKS? Granted, its still early in the program, and the flight envelope hasn't been opened up, but this thing is supposed to achieve IOC in 2015... Laughing

Delvo, I can't comment on the purported new 5th gen engines for the T50, but I have seen several RD33 runs (Advanced MIG29 engine), and spoken at length with mechanics and test operators that perform depot overhaul on them. They thought that the Russians had reached a major milestone when they were able to claim a 400 cycle life for the engine. The analogy here is that engine would be comparable to the F-100-PW-229, at the time rated at 4200 cycles, now 6000, and their 5th gen would be competeing with the PW F119 and now also the PW F135, both in production. Maybe they're trying to lower life-cycle cost by eliminating engine overhaul and just using disposable engines instead!

Seriously?! How can you answer a question about an aircraft that is not even functional? The Russians don't even know what it will and won't be able to do. All they have is a flying advertisement of an aircraft shape without production motors, avionics or systems. On the flip side, none of you (answering this question) have any real insight on what the currently fielded Raptor is capable of. Let's mark this up (best case) as a overzealous question. It simply can't be answered. It is a protoype (i.e. paper / all-hype / "hope it looks/performs like x") versus a highly capable IOC fighter.

Vpr, Sir, with seriously highest respects to you and your perspectives, one could reply to such a response in general, in saying that such a 'far-out hypothetical' could in fact be hypothetically pondered - but should be by the pertinent assets as usual. It's obviously a romantically inspired type of hypothetical at the moment no doubt, given the clear hype involved, but considering a more realistic 2018-2020+ hypothetical (as one could hypothesize about the F-35 in operational form here too), it would be a relevant issue regarding future threat analysis, etc. I mean, does anyone here posting seriously know the true extent of integrated systems, engine type, weaons capabilities and performance to be expected in the initial increment delivered by say, 2017?

With that said, of course your points and those of others completely throw this generalized 'hypothetical which one would win' scatter shot out the window as there is simply not enough info available to make any constructive speculation. (the reason why I didn't even bother to 'vote' on the survey in the first place). I'll leave my opinion at that. Respects-

biffbutkus wrote:

.. Who really has the most experience with TVC technology? ...TVC has been flown on many research and prototype aircraft in the US reaching all the way back to the early 1980s, ...:

During TVC testing, has anyone published an IR study on TVC and should there be a liability of using TVC in an excursion out of the IR stealth airflow design/ contols? The thought of "Sitting IR Duck" to the seeker/ detectors flying in/ near a "furball", comes to mind. Idea

Is TVC really about "nose pointing", as the F-22 does so well or should/ could it include hiding the "hotend" of the jet, from IR detection also? Question

Consider that TVC has been proposed for Typhoon but left off and that all of the modernization talk centers on AESA and Meteor. No TVC on the F-23 either.

As it stands, the T-50 is closer to the Silent Eagle in terms of capability, and even that is a bit of a stretch.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Can F-22A defeat the russian T-50