Forum: Air Power

Navy Retires AIM-54 Phoenix Missile

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display ... y_id=15422

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That was expected for some time

I bet its received well in several circles, not least potential adversaries. A Buffalo coming down on you in terminal dive would ruin your day. The flip side was the whole F-14 weapons system is expensive, hard to maintain and tired. The King is dead, long live the King.

I wasn't sure if this had officially happened already or not. Then, I read the article confirming the AIM-54's retirement. I had figured that the Navy had not employed them in large numbers over the past few years, as they have been out of production for sometime now. To tell you the truth, I haven't even seen any current footage of a Phoenix-carrying Tomcat in several years. Has anyone else?

I can't really say I'm sorry to see the Phoenix go, truthfully. The AMRAAM is a much better missile. It is cheaper, lightweight, and by all accounts, easier to maintain. Also, let's take its combat record, or the lack thereof into account as well. Apart from some of the stories I've heard from Iran, for all of the Phoenix's hype, it was never fired in anger. Just to branch off of the Iran stories for a moment, the other side of the story that I heard was that our Grumman tech reps sabotaged the Iranian Tomcats in order to make the firing of the Phoenix impossible, shortly before they fled Iran in 1979. However, the Iranian AF "claims" to have shot down several aircraft with the Phoenix. This comes from the air force that really can't (or won't) disclose its use of the F-14 since 1979. If one thinks about it for a moment, it would be hard to use a plane that you haven't been able to maintain properly in 25 years! Razz

Frankly, I wouldn't believe the Ayatollah's government if they told me the sky was blue, but if that's their story and they're sticking to it, then more power to them.

Quite certainly, the retirement of the Phoenix is the end of an era for the Navy, but alas, I really feel it is, as Shakespeare would say, much adoo about nothing. Now, the day the Sidewinder is retired will be the time to get misty. Of course, the Sidewinder will probably not be retired in our lifetimes anyhow, so long live the AIM-9, and to the Phoenix...well...c'ya in AMARC!

Shouldnt a new BVR weapon except AMMRAM which is medium range AAM to be introduced for long distance AAM fightin ?. Still dont get the decision to shut down the F-14's + AIM-54's Smile

Who will defent the task force ? or everything was build up during the cold war and now its all forgotten?

ps feel free to correct me if im wrong.

The Phoenix was quite antiquated, and while it has been heavily hyped since the early 70s, it was never used in anger (don't believe anything Iran says otherwise). The problem with the Phoenix was that it required the very complex Hughes Phoenix weapons system in order to operate it, which required the RIO. It was this system, among others, that was mysteriously "sabotaged" by Grumman tech reps shortly before leaving Iran in 79, hence Iran's inability to operate the Phoenix. Anyway, the Phoenix was complex, heavy, required a second man, and, oh yeah, did I mention complex? The AMRAAM is very capable as a Phoenix replacement. It doesn't have the range that the Phoenix has, however, it is lighter, and has a more than sufficient range in order to destroy a target from a considerable distance. However, I can't really call the AMRAAM a "Phoenix replacement" per se, because the Tomcat is done in 2008. Bottom line, the Phoenix (like the Tomcat) for all its hype really turned out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. The 4 air to air kills the Tomcat achieved were all recorded with AIM-7s and AIM-9s.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

TC wrote:

I can't really say I'm sorry to see the Phoenix go, truthfully. The AMRAAM is a much better missile. It is cheaper, lightweight, and by all accounts, easier to maintain. Also, let's take its combat record, or the lack thereof into account as well. Apart from some of the stories I've heard from Iran, for all of the Phoenix's hype, it was never fired in anger. Just to branch off of the Iran stories for a moment, the other side of the story that I heard was that our Grumman tech reps sabotaged the Iranian Tomcats in order to make the firing of the Phoenix impossible, shortly before they fled Iran in 1979. However, the Iranian AF "claims" to have shot down several aircraft with the Phoenix. This comes from the air force that really can't (or won't) disclose its use of the F-14 since 1979. If one thinks about it for a moment, it would be hard to use a plane that you haven't been able to maintain properly in 25 years! Razz

Frankly, I wouldn't believe the Ayatollah's government if they told me the sky was blue, but if that's their story and they're sticking to it, then more power to them.

Clearly you haven't read the latest book from Osprey. The IRIAF most certainly did use the AIM-54 in anger and achieved over 40 kills with in the war. Although the actual, true numbers will never confirmed, the truth is that it was used, and to great effect by the Iraninans. Also the F-14 is still alive and well, albeit in reduced numbers, even today. The American techs only managed to sabotage 16 AIM-54s before they left the country, and those missiles were eventually returned to service. There has been too much fog of disinformation that has distorted the real story of the Iranian F-14s. I suggest you take a gander at the Osprey book, it's a fascinating read. ANd it wasn't written by the Iranian government, but rather by another, outside author that did extensive research:

Perhaps that author didn't want another Salman Rushdie incident? Oops! Did I say that out loud? Razz

I know the US Navy still claims that only 4 air to air kills have been achieved with the F-14, and all are theirs. The only real problem I have with the Iranian's claims, is that without our technical support, their Tomcats would have been rendered useless. Now, I've heard some wild stories about the Russkies milling equipment for them, and the Iranians using MacGyver maintenance, and yada, yada, yada...But, the Iranians themselves ultimately need to fully disclose their Tomcat ops from 1979 to their final date of service (I've heard 1986). Anyway, if that story really is the truth, then congrats Iran. You were more successful with the Tomcat than we were. Now, why not try taking on our Eagle and Viper drivers? Wink

TC wrote:

The only real problem I have with the Iranian's claims, is that without our technical support, their Tomcats would have been rendered useless.

Another common misconception. Albeit almost true....the Tomcat fleet was never fully operational, true, but it was far from useless. The IRIAF was able to keep an average of 25-30 Tomcats operational during the war with Iraq. Howver, this did drop as low as 15, and rise as high as 45-50. If nothing else the mere threat of an F-14 in the air was enough to get the IrAF fighters to RTB. The MMH were really high though, into the 400 hr/flt. hr. range, yes but they were able to keep them in the air throughout the war. The farsi term "F arba ashara! Yalla! Yalla!" (F-14! Run! Run!) was heard over the IrAF's frequencies several times.

Actually the Iranian are very active in the miitary aviation biz, they modify helicopter and aircraft using chinese or pre-aquired Russian aircraft or by their own resources, they in fact have almost finished n F-5A conversion programme to make them Bs double seats.
As for the F-14, the Iranians say they have developed a new class of the Tomcat and although their were rumours the AIM-54 was becoming outdated and will be retired in 1999-2001, this is probably not true or it just didn't happen.
Beware also from the MiG-29s

Yeah, I've seen pics of their ugly twin tail F-5 conversion. Just looks bastardized. But whatever works I guess. And yes, they do have quite a developed aviation industry.

I know Iran has repaired F-4 Phantoms that the American military would have written off. As I understand it on severla occassions F-4 Phantoms would try to stir up Iraq flighters so the F-14's could take long range shots. That being said their first F-14 kill was a helicopter shot down with the gun. From what I understand Iran proved to able to fabricate parts our intelligence had said they couldn't. The simple fact that they still fly the planes after all of this time is a testiment to their abilities. The plane certainly are not as combat effective as the same type in American hands but they can cause lots of trouble in the middle east.

The F-14 crew I talked to last year said they would prefer to have the AMRAAM over the AIM-54. One thing about the Tomcat, you would have had plenty of radar range to set up a shot for the AMRAAM. I wonder how many AMRAAMs could have been fitted to a cat? Eight? That would be bad to the bone! On the plus side they weigh less so Tomcat would fly better with a load of AIM-120s.

Yep, the first IRIAF F-14 kill was a gun kill on an Mi-25. But that was after two AIM-9s had been shot at it already. The background heat, and proxinity of the chopper to the ground made it difficult for them to keep lock, so they missed. In an almost bonehead move though, the Tomcat went around for another pass and put out 400 rounds.

As for the AIM-54s on the Tomcats, if if carried all six AIM-54s, the performance was seriously dergaded. The weight and drag made it nearly impossible to maneuver in a dogfight. It also made the landing speed quite high. Thus six were seldom carried by IRIAF Tomcats. Four was not uncommon, but two was the stardard.

Yeah, the max Phoenix load was originally designed for an intercept mission. If a group of bombers was flying toward the carrier strike force, then a Tomcat could be maxed out with 6 Phoenix missiles, launch, and destroy the bombers well before they ever saw the ships. Dogfighting with 6 Phoenix missiles would be a very bad idea. If you have a missile like the AIM-54, then you should have destroyed whatever you were going up against well before you even reached the other aircraft. For the last 3+ years of Tomcat aviation, the combination of AMRAAMs and the GE 110s will be very much in the F-14's favor.

Beers, MiGs, and clunky Iranian Tomcats were made to be pounded!

Kewl

Thanx all of U guys for the details Smile