Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

Hi Thanks for answering.
Yes, I've even heard aircraft described as 4.5 generation, I guess,based on the newest avionics added to legacy era designs. I would say an airframe designed in the late 80's or 90's would be "legacy" jets? Interesting that LM is throwing the "5th generation term" around and well deserved with the F-35. If I were a competitor, my next design would be a "7th Generation." Why not take artistic license with that, kind of like building fancy new speakers that go all the way up to "11"

The 5Gen came into vogue with F-22 Raptor; legacy jets are aircraft that came before the F-22 including all the "teen" series jets, the AV-8A, A-10.
Sure, you could call,your new product a Gen 7 just so long as you can explain to the world why.. good luck with that.

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popcorn wrote:

Hi Thanks for answering.
Yes, I've even heard aircraft described as [Link pending approval] generation, I guess,based on the newest avionics added to legacy era designs. I would say an airframe designed in the late 80's or 90's would be "legacy" jets? Interesting that LM is throwing the "5th generation term" around and well deserved with the F-35. If I were a competitor, my next design would be a "7th [Link pending approval]; Why not take artistic license with that, kind of like building fancy new speakers that go all the way up to "11"

The 5Gen came into vogue with F-22 Raptor; legacy jets are aircraft that came before the F-22 including all the "teen" series jets, the AV-8A, A-10.
Sure, you could call,your new product a Gen 7 just so long as you can explain to the world [Link pending approval] good luck with that.

Ok, I'll explain Gen. 7 right after explaining how my speakers get to 11.
Thank you all for your answers. Great info there.
paul
Cheers

Generation 6 will have energy weapons.

Generation 7 will have... hell if I know. I'll be dead by then anyways at the current rate (only 33 by the way).

Can't afford this 5th generation.

So according to Kelly Johnson of SR-71, U-2, F104 fame soon only the richest coutries can afford to buy 1 of generation 6 or 7

Who can't? Nobody has reduced their orders significantly.

cynical175 wrote:

Can't afford this 5th generation.

Yes Canada easily can. The super huge totally unaffordable price increase amounts to approximately 10% more than initially estimated... which there is a buffer for. So the cost should be $85 million per unit.

Quote:

So according to Kelly Johnson of SR-71, U-2, F104 fame soon only the richest coutries can afford to buy 1 of generation 6 or 7

And that quote wasn't attributed to Johnson. It was by Norman Augustine, who wrote the Augustine laws. The problem with his prediction is that we don't need as many fighters today (and the fighters we do use are more effective),and economic performance after 1980 improved significantly.

S. Korea to Choose Aircraft Competition Winners in October [2012] May. 25, 2012 By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE

"SEOUL, South Korea — South Korea will select suppliers of military aircraft worth billions of dollars in October, a spokesman said May 25, despite calls from the main opposition party for further studies to be carried out.

The spokesman for the state Defence Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) said purchases will include 60 stealth fighters, 36 attack helicopters and eight Navy helicopters.

“We plan to announce the names of the suppliers in October,” the spokesman said, as tensions between the North and the South and its allies remain high over the North’s nuclear and missile programs.

The contract for the stealth fighters is worth 8 trillon won ($6.7 billion), he said...."

MORE at the JUMP!

Somehow I just don't see the Koreans,underwriting the billions needed to make the SE a reality. I also believe they won't let the opportunity slip by to keep abreast with the Japanese and their,F-35 acquisition. Buying the F-35 ensures them,entry into the elite Gen 5 club.

The knob on my stereo goes to eleven. It's louder than ten! Really, it was a simple solution to squeezing more out of my stereo. My old stereo was great, but i just wanted a little more out of it, hence the redesign of its knob.

ELEVEN! Aahh 'SPINAL TAP' Forever man. Very Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN5SCRvhMtk

SpudmanWP wrote:

Who can't? Nobody has reduced their orders significantly.

In truth, 'nobody' yet has either placed, or paid for 'significant' orders, especially when compared to originally expected orders.

The significant reduction in orders will of course be realized by default over the duration and be a simple result of reduced Defense budgets chasing after higher-than-expected total procurement unit costs.

And in response for Popcorn...

Given SK's timeline requirements for her initial acquisition, one can pretty much deduce that the F-15SE's original canted-tail concept will probably not be part of the actual F-15SE concept being offered for this acquisition.

As such, any co-development funding which might be necessary (for the touch-screen displays, blockers and coatings, eg) could indeed be justified, as royalties/dividends (payback) under any such hypothetical venture would likely be collected upon any non-Korean F-15SE'ish variant procurement down the road too.

Besides, said touch-screen display, cwb, DEWS and blockers could further be retrofitted down the road to the legacy F-15K already in operation.

Call it a day.

Anyone know if proposals have been submitted and whether Boeing proposed the
F-15K in lieu of the SE? If true, then DAPA won't appreciate being offered what it refers to as an "outdated" design. Whereas the Koreans relaxed the requirement for stealth so as not to exclude other vendors, it's apparent they place a high value on stealthiness. The F-35 appears to be well positioned to secure another order in the coming months.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/na ... 03458.html

[Exclusive] Boeing may give up offering stealthy jet

Little progress made in weapons bay development

By Lee Tae-hoon
Industry insiders raised questions Wednesday about whether U.S. aerospace giant Boeing will fulfill its pledge to offer F-15 Silent Eagles (F-15 SEs) with an internal weapons bay and twin canted tails, two of the core technologies for stealth jets, to Seoul...
deliver by 2016.”

DAPA officials warned that Boeing may enter the FX-III race after minor upgrades to the F-15K, such as installing Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars, but the airplane’s stealth capability remains a crucial factor in deciding which new fighter jets will be purchased.
“Boeing may compete in the FX-III race without having to complete its development of the CWB or canted vertical tails, but it should bear in mind that Korea is eyeing to acquire advanced jets, rather than outdated ones,” a senior DAPA official said.

DAPA is expected to issue a request for proposal on Jan. 30 without the requirements of the conformal weapons bay and a specific target value for the radar cross section of the plane.

Quote:

By Lee Tae-hoon
Industry insiders raised questions Wednesday about whether U.S. aerospace giant Boeing will fulfill its pledge to offer F-15 Silent Eagles (F-15 SEs) with an internal weapons bay and twin canted tails, two of the core technologies for stealth jets, to Seoul...
deliver by 2016.

1st -- Humble apologies for spinning off on a tangent here....
I am not an RCS expert at all, and know little more than what you can read in books, internet (thanks Al G.) and TV .
Can someone explain why it is not possible to keep a vertical rudder even with the dangerous 90degree to horizontal angle if the material or surface of that rudder isn't radar reflective? Boeing has a huge amount of composite material expertise and the antennas (if those are the remaining radar return sources) in the current rudder design can surely be relocated if the alternative means the end of the production run for the F-15.

I suspect that the core problems of the F-15 design with respect to RCS signature are far far deeper than rudder angles.

Archeman:

Google corner reflector about the 90 degree angles.

Composites can reflect radar.

Radar transparent materials are not good because they allow radar waves to get under them and reflect/diffract off structures underneath.

The F-15 has 90 degree angles. It does not have edge alignment. It gives enemy radars a look at the compressor faces. The Silent Eagle is a last gasp to try and keep the line open. It assumes that a current F-15 user will not be allowed to buy F-35. Any country in that position could buy Typhoon and use the threat of that to get the F-35.

Note that even the SE's proposed radar array is not canted upward as in the F-22 and F-35 to deflect radar waves but rather it tilts slightly downward, providing still another reflective surface to enemy ground-based radar.

Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

F-35 & T-50 PAK-FA Compete S. Korea + F-15E + Typhoon