Forum: F-35 Lightning II

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... mp;next=10

The highlights:
1. The first batch of F-35s will be standard with Israeli C4I installed.
2. Folowon F-35s will

Quote:

Washington now has agreed to allow Israeli F-35s to be rewired so that Israeli EW systems can be installed on the aircraft. That would allow Israel to gradually add indigenous EW sensors and countermeasures on its fighters once it receives its first squadron.

Quote:

The Israeli air force initially presented a long list of unique and costly requirements for the JSF, but it has accepted that its first F-35s will be almost identical to those of the U.S. Air Force, with only Israeli command, control, computers, communications and intelligence (C4I) systems installed in them. The plans to add Israeli EW systems, air-to-air and air-to-ground munitions as well as an external fuel tank, were approved in principle but will be deferred in order to protect the budgetary framework and delivery schedule.

3. Deliveries could start as early as 2016.

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Israel, U.S. Strike F-35 Technology Deal Jul 1, 2011 By Alon Ben-David, Amy Butler, Robert Wall, all Le Bourget

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... mp;next=10

"A major obstacle blocking Israel’s purchase of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has been cleared, perhaps signaling that the U.S. is relaxing its hard-line approach to exporting JSF technologies that may be crucial to securing additional foreign sales.

The U.S. has been cautious about sharing sensitive technologies for the stealth fighter, but existing program partners and international competitions—such as in Japan—are increasing pressure on it to do so. The breakthrough comes as more international JSF partners near buying decisions. However, the added numbers will likely have only little impact on the debate about the F-35 unit cost, since initial procurement numbers for non-U.S. buyers are relatively small compared to the Pentagon’s purchases.

By far the most contentious fight over F-35 technology has centered on Israel, which wants to adapt the aircraft to use indigenously developed electronic warfare (EW) equipment. After strongly resisting this for some time, Washington now has agreed to allow Israeli F-35s to be rewired so that Israeli EW systems can be installed on the aircraft. That would allow Israel to gradually add indigenous EW sensors and countermeasures on its fighters once it receives its first squadron.

With that deal in hand, officials for both the Israeli air force and Lockheed Martin expect the $2.7 billion contract for the procurement of 19 or 20 F-35As will be signed by early next year.

“I believe that Israel could receive its first F-35s in late 2016,” Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin’s general manager of the F-35 program, tells Aviation Week. A senior Israeli air force official, who until recently was concerned about delays in the program, says the schedule agreed upon is “very satisfactory.”

The Israeli air force initially presented a long list of unique and costly requirements for the JSF, but it has accepted that its first F-35s will be almost identical to those of the U.S. Air Force, with only Israeli command, control, computers, communications and intelligence (C4I) systems installed in them. The plans to add Israeli EW systems, air-to-air and air-to-ground munitions as well as an external fuel tank, were approved in principle but will be deferred in order to protect the budgetary framework and delivery schedule.

Until recently, Israel insisted that only its own EW systems would be suitable to meet the developing anti-aircraft threat in the region, such as the deployment of SA-17 and SA-22 air defense systems in Syria. But now, claims the Israeli air force official, “the F-35s we will receive will be more than ready to meet those threats.”

According to the program schedule, Israeli F-35s will be manufactured within the seventh and eighth low-rate initial production (LRIP) lot. The LRIP 5 cost is being negotiated by the Pentagon and Lockheed Martin. “Israel could still be the first international customer to receive the JSF,” says Burbage.

One issue that remains to be settled between the two countries is when Israeli air force crews will begin training on the F-35s and on whose platforms. Burbage says training could commence in 2016, but it is for the Pentagon to decide which aircraft will be made available for Israeli training.

Facing a series of tectonic shifts in the region, some perceived as threatening, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) are drafting a new work plan for 2013-17. The underlying assumption of the plan is that the dramatic changes in the Middle East could turn peaceful neighbors to the country’s south, such as Egypt, and to the east, such as Jordan, more hostile to Israel. The IDF consequently aim to build a larger, more flexible force that will be capable of dealing with more than the traditional northern front of Syria and Lebanon. The Israeli air force claims to be the only service with that flexibility, and it calls for accelerating the plan to procure 75 F-35s by 2030.

In the coming years, the air force will begin decommissioning dozens of its aging fighters, such as F-16A/Bs and F-15A/Bs, and with only 20 new F-35s, its fighter fleet will reach its lowest point ever.

However, there is strong competition for funding. Israeli ground commanders argue that because of the potential threat that the giant and modern Egyptian army would be turned against Israel, it is necessary to establish an additional mechanized division, equipped with Merkava tanks and the new Namer armored personnel carrier. The production of the Merkava-based Namer was moved to General Dynamics Land Systems in the U.S. in order to enable Israel to procure them using U.S. military aid funding, the same funding source used to acquire the F-35s.

Still unclear is whether the U.S.-Israeli deal means Washington is recognizing that it needs to be more pragmatic in terms of JSF technology controls to secure international deals. Program officials do note that any foreign buyer will have the same level of stealth with which the U.S. will operate.

A key test of how much the technology transfer approach has changed will come in Japan, which recently issued a request for proposals for new fighters. Japan has specified a high degree of technology transfer and work on the program, with an expressed interest in a domestic assembly line. U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen. C.D. Moore, deputy director of the JSF program, says the government is working closely with Lockheed Martin and engine provider Pratt & Whitney to put together an attractive deal. However, he also points out that Japan has ranked capabilities as the most important source selection criteria, even ahead of industrial participation and life-cycle cost.

Australia and Italy are expected to be among the next countries ready to commit to buying JSFs, likely placing their first contracts as part of next year’s LRIP 6 package. Turkey is expected to come soon after. Although the Norwegian government recently put forward a proposal to buy the first four F-35s of its larger procurement, the actual contract for that deal may not be signed for another three years.

Meanwhile, Denmark is planning a fighter competition and is expected to make a choice quickly. Pending elections in Copenhagen could even see an acceleration of the competitive time line. The F-35 would face stiff competition from the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Saab Gripen and Eurofighter Typhoon."

Good catch, missed that tidbit.

I guess we will hear more from Turkey now?

spazsinbad wrote:

I guess we will hear more from Turkey now?

which one? there are 3 or 4 to choose from.

munny wrote:

spazsinbad wrote:

I guess we will hear more from Turkey now?

which one? there are 3 or 4 to choose from.

I come up with three. ELP, Underhill and Butters. Who is missing?

hehe.. nevermind Wink

How much could this effect the timetable for the standard F-35? The thing's late as it is and I can't see how having to screw about installing and testing Israeli made kit is going to make that situation any better. It's a stupid move if you ask me and that's discounting the fact they will almost certainly try and sell off some of the F-35's secrets (What? You think they won't?).

(BTW guys, not sure if you'd noticed but the two of the trolls mentioned above have been banned. +1 to the moderators)

"Until recently, Israel insisted that only its own EW systems would be suitable to meet the developing anti-aircraft threat in the region, such as the deployment of SA-17 and SA-22 air defense systems in Syria. But now, claims the Israeli air force official, “the F-35s we will receive will be more than ready to meet those threats.” "Still unclear is whether the U.S.-Israeli deal means Washington is recognizing that it needs to be more pragmatic in terms of JSF technology controls to secure international deals." The only pragmatic thing I see here is that the F-35 systems were able to meet the threats and revising the systems is not necessary. Very Happy

shep1978 wrote:

BTW guys, not sure if you'd noticed but the two of the trolls mentioned above have been banned. +1 to the moderators

What a shame *snort* *snort* Laughing

I wonder if the US will be given access to any hardware and code produced by Israel if it turns out to be superior.

shep1978 wrote:

It's a stupid move if you ask me and that's discounting the fact they will almost certainly try and sell off some of the F-35's secrets (What? You think they won't?).

I'd be more worried about the Turks going all religious nutcase on us like Iran did back in 1979. Next thing we knew, our F-14/AIM-54 tech was going into the MIG-31, MIG-29, and SU-27. Of course, the Turks don't like the Russians very much, but I do wonder how their new Muslim government will get on with the Chinese.

Shep1978 said: "How much could this effect the timetable for the standard F-35? The thing's late as it is and I can't see how having to screw about installing and testing Israeli made kit is going to make that situation any better. It's a stupid move if you ask me and that's discounting the fact they will almost certainly try and sell off some of the F-35's secrets (What? You think they won't?)."

This is a quote from the Aviation Week article above. Always worth reading: [Also found top of this page: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... -180.html]

Israel To Buy F-35s With Cockpit Mods Aug 27, 2010 By Alon Ben-David, Tel Aviv

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 249396.xml

"Israel is pressing ahead with its purchase of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, after securing U.S. approval to install Israeli munitions on the aircraft and a pledge to adjust the electronic warfare suite to emerging Middle East threats.

“The aircraft will be designated F-35I, as there will be unique Israeli features installed in them,” a senior Israel air forceofficial tells Aviation Week.

Israel’s initial batch will be almost identical to the international JSF offered to other countries, with one difference: The F-35s manufactured for Israel will include several cockpit interfaces to accommodate the air force’s command, control, communications, computer and intelligence systems. The F-35 main computer will enable a plug-and-play feature for Israeli equipment

The U.S. also is not standing in the way of an Israeli requirement to install a 600-gal. detachable fuel tank to increase the F-35’s range. Although the deployment would undermine the JSF’s stealth benefit, “in some missions, you can fly nonstealthy part of the way and become stealthy as you enter the danger zone,” explains the air force official,..."
&
"...Israel was forced to realize that the highly integrated electronics structure of the F-35 will not enable installment of its own electronic warfare systems on top of the aircraft’s EW suite, and that the U.S. will not grant Israel the source code to alter threat and jamming libraries. Instead, the two countries agreed on a mechanism by which the U.S. will make the required software changes to meet any new threat that might emerge in the region.

For nonstealth missions requiring an active EW system, Israel will be able to fit an external jamming pod on its JSFs.

Owing to a concerted Rafael push, Israel also insisted that it be able to install its future air-to-air missile in the aircraft’s internal weapon bays. While the successor of Rafael’s Python 5 is not even on the drawing board, Israel believes the current U.S.-made air-to-air missiles offered with the F-35 will not be sufficient.

However, Israel is planning to develop an air-to-air derivative of the Stunner dual-mode (radar, infrared) missile, which is being developed by Rafael and Raytheon as part of the David’s Sling counter-missile and rocket system. One threat it aims to neutralize is from “U.S.-made fighters equipped with advanced radars,” says the Israeli air force source, hinting at the pending sale to Saudi Arabia of F-15s equipped with an active, electronically scanned array radar.

An additional requirement is the capacity to install Rafael’s Spice air-to-ground guided bomb in the F-35’s internal bay. In order to fit the Spice internally, Rafael will be required to make structural changes in the weapon, which will demand defense ministry development funding.

Now the air force must develop a proper operational doctrine for the fighter. Several officers admit that while trying the F-35’s simulator, they flew at low altitude, disregarding the aircraft’s stealth capability. “It is always like that with new aircraft,” says the air force source. “We will not be able to fully appreciate the JSF’s capabilities until we receive it....”

"Much ado about nothing";

Israel has nothing to compete with the F-35 and Loud, fast talk and smoke and mirrors don't launch missles.

EW is a growing science and even the US will have difficulty keeping up with its adversaries. Tweaking the programs will be a continous effort that would be in Israels best interest to feed their intelligence to the US for inclusion in the constant revisions. All allied forces flying the F-35 will need to keep that EW suite in the latest "know".

Last time I looked the premier stealth fighter (F-22) can carry "gas bags", also; not rocket science.

Break out the saws and hammers, "stuffing"weapons in the weapons bay will be a new industry. The great idea of "not" having to launch BVR ("whites of their eyes"), unless you have to, will give the weapons longer legs, as well. Check your 6.

Gee!, don't see many changes to hold up production of the F-35I, maybe they'll have a cool, new stealth paint job; stars, lightning bolts or something! Laughing

Looks like the allies came up with a pretty good package, after all.

What Israel wants, Israel gets apparently.
So what's the deal? Do the Israeli's have compromising pictures of -everyone- or what? What happened to that resolve that the Israeli's weren't going to get their way with this thing? Is it a case of sales being more important than pride do you think?

Quote:

The Israeli air force initially presented a long list of unique and costly requirements for the JSF, but it has accepted that its first F-35s will be almost identical to those of the U.S. Air Force, with only Israeli command, control, computers, communications and intelligence (C4I) systems installed in them. The plans to add Israeli EW systems, air-to-air and air-to-ground munitions as well as an external fuel tank, were approved in principle but will be deferred in order to protect the budgetary framework and delivery schedule.

Hah, so the Israeli's don't like having black boxes in their aircraft that they don't have access to either. I guess no remote kill switches for the Israeli's then?

Quote:

Owing to a concerted Rafael push, Israel also insisted that it be able to install its future air-to-air missile in the aircraft’s internal weapon bays. While the successor of Rafael’s Python 5 is not even on the drawing board, Israel believes the current U.S.-made air-to-air missiles offered with the F-35 will not be sufficient.

Interesting that the Israeli's don't think the 120D+ is the way to go either.

What could the US do to punish Israel if they did sell of the tech? What did they do the last time they sold off stuff to the Chinese? I think it was...nothing.