Forum: Program and politics

This is a quote from the Aviation Week article above. Always worth reading:

Israel To Buy F-35s With Cockpit Mods Aug 27, 2010 By Alon Ben-David, Tel Aviv

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 249396.xml

"Israel is pressing ahead with its purchase of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, after securing U.S. approval to install Israeli munitions on the aircraft and a pledge to adjust the electronic warfare suite to emerging Middle East threats.

“The aircraft will be designated F-35I, as there will be unique Israeli features installed in them,” a senior Israel air forceofficial tells Aviation Week.

Israel’s initial batch will be almost identical to the international JSF offered to other countries, with one difference: The F-35s manufactured for Israel will include several cockpit interfaces to accommodate the air force’s command, control, communications, computer and intelligence systems. The F-35 main computer will enable a plug-and-play feature for Israeli equipment

The U.S. also is not standing in the way of an Israeli requirement to install a 600-gal. detachable fuel tank to increase the F-35’s range. Although the deployment would undermine the JSF’s stealth benefit, “in some missions, you can fly nonstealthy part of the way and become stealthy as you enter the danger zone,” explains the air force official,..."
&
"...Israel was forced to realize that the highly integrated electronics structure of the F-35 will not enable installment of its own electronic warfare systems on top of the aircraft’s EW suite, and that the U.S. will not grant Israel the source code to alter threat and jamming libraries. Instead, the two countries agreed on a mechanism by which the U.S. will make the required software changes to meet any new threat that might emerge in the region.

For nonstealth missions requiring an active EW system, Israel will be able to fit an external jamming pod on its JSFs.

Owing to a concerted Rafael push, Israel also insisted that it be able to install its future air-to-air missile in the aircraft’s internal weapon bays. While the successor of Rafael’s Python 5 is not even on the drawing board, Israel believes the current U.S.-made air-to-air missiles offered with the F-35 will not be sufficient.

However, Israel is planning to develop an air-to-air derivative of the Stunner dual-mode (radar, infrared) missile, which is being developed by Rafael and Raytheon as part of the David’s Sling counter-missile and rocket system. One threat it aims to neutralize is from “U.S.-made fighters equipped with advanced radars,” says the Israeli air force source, hinting at the pending sale to Saudi Arabia of F-15s equipped with an active, electronically scanned array radar.

An additional requirement is the capacity to install Rafael’s Spice air-to-ground guided bomb in the F-35’s internal bay. In order to fit the Spice internally, Rafael will be required to make structural changes in the weapon, which will demand defense ministry development funding.

Now the air force must develop a proper operational doctrine for the fighter. Several officers admit that while trying the F-35’s simulator, they flew at low altitude, disregarding the aircraft’s stealth capability. “It is always like that with new aircraft,” says the air force source. “We will not be able to fully appreciate the JSF’s capabilities until we receive it....”

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I realize it's not like hacking an xbox or iphone. But I have a hard time believing that F-35 buyers won't jailbreak their copies at the first opportunity or need.

One of the reasons that the JSF is exportable (and the F-22 is not) is that a lot of effort went into making the system nearly immune to reverse engineering.

1st503rdsgt wrote:

I realize it's not like hacking an xbox or iphone. But I have a hard time believing that F-35 buyers won't jailbreak their copies at the first opportunity or need.

I'm that'd be a terms of use violation (or equivalent) and they'd face some severe consequences ("No spare parts for you!").

Debut F-35 order on the way, disputes remain Tuesday, June 28, 2011 ÜM?T ENG?NSOY
ANKARA - Hürriyet Daily News

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2011-06-28

"Turkey will likely place a purchase order for a first batch of six F-35 next-generation aircraft before yearend, but disputes continue among parties

Turkey plans to buy the U.S.-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II, a stealth multirole fighter jet, to meet most future needs for its Air Force’s next-generation fighter planes. It has voiced willingness to buy around 100 F-35s over the next 15 years, but as the program’s limited production stage begins, it so far has not formally committed to the program. To do so, it needs to submit a purchase order for a first batch of six aircraft before the end of the year.

“We will have talks [with the Americans] in the months ahead in an effort to resolve some matters. If we manage to reach an agreement, we expect to order the first six aircraft this year,” Murad Bayar, chief of the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, or SSM, the government’s defense procurement agency, recently told the Hürriyet Daily News. “We expect to reach a deal.”

The F-35, whose production is led by the U.S.’s Lockheed Martin, the world’s largest defense company, will be built by a consortium of nine countries, including Turkey. Other members of the consortium are Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, Norway and Denmark.

A few years ago, when Turkey’s purchase of around 100 jets was expected to cost around $10 billion or $11 billion, Turkish companies grabbed project work around $5 billion, meeting nearly the half of the expense. But the unit price has gone up considerably over the past two years, exceeding $13 billion.

Now Turkish companies seek to raise their share to more than $6 billion to stay near the planned 50 percent figure. In addition, the United States remains reluctant to share millions of lines of source codes that make the plane’s flight possible. Turkey, however, wants access to part of these source codes related to operational needs.

Placing an order for the first six aircraft before the end of this year mostly is related to early deliveries, around 2014 and 2015, and a failure to do so would not mean the end of the world. “If we don’t place the first purchase order by yearend, that would not necessarily mean that we have failed to agree, it may mean that we at this point may not have the finances,” Bayar said. “Anyway, we hope that none of this happens.”

The F-35 mainly has three versions.
The F-35A is the conventional takeoff and landing variant intended for the U.S. Air Force and other air forces. The F-35B is the short takeoff and vertical landing variant of the aircraft, and is meant for the U.S. Marines. The F-35C carrier variant features larger wings with foldable wingtip sections, and is meant for the U.S. Navy. A fourth variant, the F-35I, is an export version for Israel.

Second aircraft
Separately, Turkey has a plan to develop a second fighter aircraft in the 2020s. Turkish Aerospace Industries, or TAI, has about 18 months to develop the specifications for this second fighter jet, which should replace most of the Vietnam War-era F-4E Phantoms.

The European consortium Eurofighter repeatedly has asked Turkey to do the job together, but Ankara prefers to develop the fighter from scratch, probably with another country. The Eurofighter consortium already builds the Typhoon. Other options for Turkey include South Korea or Brazil."

Not that confident, but may be they succeed developing and building a jet.
Last decades it has been tried by several countries, only Sweden successfully
has produced high end fighters.
Sweden is also not a newcomer and did develop fighters since WWII

If Turkey didn't purchase them could it end up helping the Japanese getting theirs on time? (Of course that's assuming the Japanese do go for the F-35.)

shep1978 wrote:

I would rather the Turks didn't get the F-35 as they are clearly an untrustworthy bunch.

Agreed. And they're getting closer to Iran and the radical islamists all the time.

Strange opinion. Never noticed for already years they want to join the European Union?
Till recently they also were a very close military partner of Israel.
Turkey is a neighbor of Iran and forms the border of Nato territory with Iran, as well as Syria.
Turks are no Arabs and certainly not exactly mix politically with each other.

What I find interesting is that the reaction to Turkey sort of moving towards Islamic states to basically advocate pushing them farther away rather than reinforcing our relationship.

stereospace wrote:

shep1978 wrote:

I would rather the Turks didn't get the F-35 as they are clearly an untrustworthy bunch.

Agreed. And they're getting closer to Iran and the radical islamists all the time.

That's why Turkey consented to a NATO radar being stationed on it's soil watching every Iranian move.

That's why Incirlik AF base will have the world's largest fleet of Predator drones.

With the Turks, everything is for sale at their sharp price points. Anything is. We gave you good deal! It's the root of why I despise technology sharing with them. If they can resell for even more money they will, despite mom (let alone Uncle) gets tossed under the bus. In the spirit that Thanksgiving holiday is upon Americans, and since Adam Sandler formerly of SNL is putting out a new movie, I say 'love to eat Turkey, love to eat Turkey ... every day ....' Even the shrewd Israelis from their experiences with the Turks can appreciate what I suggest. Good luck with the transfer, we Americans. Let yet another great taxpayer and armed services screw over commence.

Forum: Program and politics

Turkey REALLY wants the F-35 codes and puts order on hold.