Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

g e,

How much FAC/A experience do you have? TACAIR experience? Just trying to figure out how you are drawing your conclusions.

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INO wrote:

g e,

How much FAC/A experience do you have? TACAIR experience? Just trying to figure out how you are drawing your conclusions.

U would not believe me anyhow so I'm not going there...My statement is meant to draw attention to the fact that A10's and F-16's have been doing CAS and FAC for years single seat, not to mention the best FAC/A’s in history were F-100 guys in Vietnam: a single seat fighter...can it be done better with two crew members? I stand by my statement that the amount of SA in the cockpit is finite and sharing it only causes confusion additionally if I have to give up fuel to carry a GIB I call that an afterthought during the design phase.

Single seat forever...

GE

While the Navy is the only service that requires a crew for FAC/A, the Marines have different rules and guidlines for their single seat or crewed FAC/A's. And while the AF has F-16's and A-10's doing the FAC/A mission, on many occasions, there are two aircraft (one providing support for the other). Also, it seems that the AF doesnt highly regard the FAC/A program as they have closed all AF FAC/A schools. Not sure why, Im sure politics played a huge roll somewhere in the decision making process. Anyhow...

I asked about your background for several reasons. Your comment about SA in the cockpit struck me as unusual. I would agree with that comment if we were talking about older hornets, vipers, etc... However, the Rhino, especially the block 2 are much different than the older legacy aircraft. I would argue that in the Rhino, there is a much higher level of SA with the new sensors, displays, etc.. There is so much SA, that 1 person cannot process all of it by him/herself. A good pilot and good wso = better than a single pilot. a good pilot with a bad wso = less than a single seat pilot. With the right crew and todays technology, a crew can do so much more than that of a single person.

The single seat vs crew is an argument that will last as long as people are still flying jets.

GE,

While your bias is clear in support of a superior single-seat configurations vs any requirement for 2 crew - and I won't debate that aspect here - I would have to personally assess that a single-seat F-15SE variant would be a worthy development, as would a future F/A-18E block III with 'electronic-awareness' Grolwer-lite design. These could be two highly functional and capable platforms in a single-seat operation, while further saving siginficant Life-cycle costs in crew costs alone. The front-end acquisition costs saved and added internal fuel/avionices space provided would be a bonus. imho.

Quote:

U would not believe me anyhow so I'm not going there...My statement is meant to draw attention to the fact that A10's and F-16's have been doing CAS and FAC for years single seat, not to mention the best FAC/A’s in history were F-100 guys in Vietnam: a single seat fighter...can it be done better with two crew members? I stand by my statement that the amount of SA in the cockpit is finite and sharing it only causes confusion additionally if I have to give up fuel to carry a GIB I call that an afterthought during the design phase.

Single seat forever...

GE

The JSF program certainly supports this argument as there are zero efforts, from what I know, to add a second seat to any variants. We will eventually see an end to two seat fighter aircraft in the US military. A one man crew may, in fact, work better for fast jets, but it doesn't work for attack helicopters which do the bulk of the CAS missions and have acted as FACs. There's only 1 attack helicopter I know that is single seat (Ka-50) and it eventually was redesigned for two crew. With respect to the FAC/CAS missions and fast jets, I do have a hard time seeing how 1 set of eyes can be more effective than 2. Yes, sharing data may cause crew confusion, but isn't there supposed to be training that improves crew coordination?

How many radios does your average US fighter aircraft (F-16, A-10, F-15E, F-18, AV-8B) have? How do they talk to the ground guys; HaveQuick, SINCGARS? How do the aircraft talk to each other and HQ and/or C2? Where does the IDM come into play on FAC/CAS missions? I see the potential for one guy in the cockpit to get pretty overwhelmed managing all the data that is coming in through his radios, IDM (if used), targeting pod and what not. I will say, just because there's not a GIB in many CAS aircraft, doesn't mean there aren't two sets of eyes working the same mission. During both tours in Iraq I never saw CAS aircraft fly by themselves. I imagine the wingman plays a VERY important roll.

How many A2A missiles a SH can carry? 10? 12? or more?

14. Take this and add 2 cheek AMRAAMs.

SpudmanWP wrote:

14. Take this and add 2 cheek AMRAAMs.

Awesome...Thanks..

Spudman: Wouldn't that make for 12 AMRAAMs? My understanding is that the Super Hornet (like the Hornet) cannot carry AMRAAMs on the wingtip launchers.

You are correct, but the question was how many A2A missiles the SH can carry, not how many AMRAAM specifically.

Notice that the above pic has AIM-7 Sparrows on the outboard pylons (but can carry AMRAAM or Sidewinder there if needed).

Spudman: Thanks for the clarification. Has there been a definitive reason about why the Hornets cannot carry AMRAAMs on the wingtip rails while the Viper can? Someone suggested that the wing fold mechanism is responsible for this limitation but I would GUESS that a wing strong enough to hold up an airplane is not going to be grossly affected by the weight difference between an AIM-9 (about 190 lbs) and an AIM-120 (about 335 lbs).

Yup, it's a weight thing (between AMRAAM and it's rail).

The -E's do a lot of tankin', while the -F's do a lot of figthin'...

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

SHornet Question