Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Pre-war alone, F-22 could very well have been NEEDED for specific pre-war intel gathering, especially with regards to gathering info on potential radar/SAM sites - if the green light was given (as it was). So that is the point! There is indeed a specific task for this aircraft in such a current day scenario where other aircraft were not necessarily the best suitable to verify a certain target of interest! Simply, systems such as global hawk + F-22 would be a valid airspace over-flight platform able to gather data. And if during any actual combat, certain OCA/Air defense targets needed quick engagement, absolutely then, the F-22 could be a valid and required system - whether or not the tactical requirement was only in order to test capabilities.

For one thing though, how does one assume to know what capabilities the other side has? What if modern SAM capabilites were somehow recently smuggled in, that weren't previously on the list? An optimal capability needs to be available to meet any contingency and employed in overwhelming force if a high enough threat exists to require the most capable systems.

So no, don't even deploy F-22 to Europe for training if we're so afraid of PR of losing one. Which of course defeats the entire purpose of maintaining and operating this platform in the first place.

Yet with regards to countering hostile merc infantry and artillery forces, which are breaching UN resolution??? Perhaps one can contemplate an F-15E with APG-82 and G4 litening and 10x CBU-105 patrolling @ 25k' and teamed with Reaper? i.e.. stuff you DON'T necessarily have to kill from below 15,000 ft at all.

Respects.

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Geogen,

You've got a very vivid imagination of how war works and what's done in the COAC. I'm afraid that until you stop trying to create your own F-22 reality that you just won't get it.

DA

Why the F-22 Did Not Participate in the Libya Attack -- the Real Story

Posted by David A. Fulghum at 3/25/2011 8:31 AM CDT

Here is the response from the U.S. Joint Task Force for Libya ops via 17th AF on why the F-22 was not used for this operation despite the expectations of the Air Force chief of staff. It seems to make sense in a Byzantine way

"Because of the speed upon which the operations came together with our coalition partners, [the JTF] needed to look realistically at the fighter assets already within Europe to execute operations. Because there are no F-22 Raptors based in the European theater, they were not included in the initial stages of the operation."

"The formulation of Operation Odyssey Dawn air component was extremely successful, with the aggressive timeline from the U.N. Security Council Resolution to the first operational sorties, to where we are today."

It appears they are saying "because of the speed" and the "aggressive timeline" demanded by the French to get off a quick attack in time for the French elections and before Benghazi fell are the decisive elements. They didn't have time to send the stealth fighters when they would do the most good -- on the first day.

The U.N. resolution was Thursday evening and the bombs started falling Saturday morning. As of Friday the AF was still busy on the flightline at Langley putting the final upgrades on the F-22s and awaiting a deployment order.

As near as can be determined, there were no technical issues as speculated by some pundits. F-22 stealth communications are routed through other aircraft when necessary. F-22s don't escort B-2s. The 3.1 upgrade package allow the F-22 to pull precision coordinates from its own sensors and pass them to its precision weapons.

With reporting by Amy Butler

According to JTF's AF CoS...

"...they were not included in the initial stages of the operation."

Not in the acknowledged initial stages. Just as Rafale-M were not in the initial stages...

No matter what one's personal ideology stand vis-a-vis F-22 is, it would be a no-brainer combat scenario to excerise this capability today, even if limited in duration, in order to enhance the overall system's capbility and in support of ongoing mission. Respects.

Next...

geogen wrote:

According to JTF's AF CoS...

"...they were not included in the initial stages of the operation."

Not in the acknowledged initial stages. Just as Rafale-M were not in the initial stages...

No matter what one's personal ideology stand vis-a-vis F-22 is, it would be a no-brainer combat scenario to excerise this capability today, even if limited in duration, in order to enhance the overall system's capbility and in support of ongoing mission. Respects.

Next...

So now we are revising the history of this no fly zone to include F-22s? Wow...

-DA

Leave the F-22's for when they are really needed. We only have <180, and attrition will take a small toll on the fleet (which will only be magnified because of its small size).

Now....back On Topic

BDF wrote:

Why the F-22 Did Not Participate in the Libya Attack -- the Real Story

As near as can be determined, there were no technical issues as speculated by some pundits. F-22 stealth communications are routed through other aircraft when necessary. F-22s don't escort B-2s. The 3.1 upgrade package allow the F-22 to pull precision coordinates from its own sensors and pass them to its precision weapons.

With reporting by Amy Butler

In the future under more protected airspace, will Raptors escort B-2s? We know they can be detected.
On a 100+nm inland bombing run, would there still be no fighter escort?

There's a world of difference between detecting something and seeing it long enough to get a shooting solution, let alone being able to guide anything to it.

chrisrt wrote:

In the future under more protected airspace, will Raptors escort B-2s? We know they can be detected.
On a 100+nm inland bombing run, would there still be no fighter escort?

The F-22 is really only detectable at tactically significant ranges by low frequency surveillance radars. The B-2s aren’t. I’m surprised by Fulghum’s comments about F-22s escorting B-2s and perhaps they’re aimed towards operations in Libya. As far as I know the USAF is still planning on using the Global Strike Task Force construct and the F-22s and B-2s were exercising this as recently as last year IIRC. This CONOPS was for 4 B-2s to be “enabled” by 48 F-22s.

Of those 48, only a handful (if any) were to provide direct escort. Most of the F-22s are to destroy enemy air, SAMs and key radar sites to provide a corridor from which the B-2s would ingress to the targets. F-22s are comparatively range limited to B-2s and would be used to assist in dense perimeter defenses were the B-2s could “squirt through” and roam in the enemy’s backfield. I’d imagine that as the enemy’s outer defenses are worn down tankers and other high value platforms can move forward to further increase the range of the fighter umbrella.

I wonder if any of the more "enthusiastic" F-22 for Libyan No Fly Zone posters still think it a good idea to deploy that platform with the virtue of 20/20 hind sight?

-DA

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Raptors for the No-Fly Zone?