Forum: F-35 Lightning II

F-22 is much more expensive than F-35.

---------------
As of December 31, 2007, the 183-aircraft F-22 program had
a Program Acquisition Unit Cost (or PAUC, which is the program’s total acquisition cost divided by the total number of aircraft acquired [including non-production aircraft]) of $350.8 million in then-year dollars,
and an Average Unit Procurement Cost (or APUC, which is the program’s total procurement cost divided by 175 production aircraft) of $191.6 million in then-year dollars.

F-16.net Sponsor

1st503rdsgt wrote:

That said, I still have a real problem with individuals who continue to insist that the F-35 is somehow a cheaper alternative to the F-22. It can't touch the F-22 in air-to-air capability, and indications are that it won't be that much cheaper.

The key point that you're forgetting, is that the F-35 WAS designed to be second only to the F-22, in air to air capabilities.

lb wrote:

We should have purchased enough F-22's for 10 sqdn's.

Agreed.

Quote:

The F-35A is not going to be much cheaper than an F-22 to purchase. It's going to cost $100+ million based on a buy of thousands.

The figure is closer to $60-70m/aircraft, based upon a buy of thousands.

Quote:

The F-35 is a versatile world class aircraft. Many nations will be flying it as their premier fighter. This program is crucial and needs to succeed. That said the F-35 is not an air superiority fighter, though it's very good air to air, and can not be turned into one.

Jon Beesley would disagree with this assessment.

kristianisme wrote:

please give me your source of the PAK FAs RCS

Don't have one. I try to chose my words carefully to be as accurate as possible, hence why "speculate" appeared in my post.

I don't know the PAK's FCS, and the only figure for the F-35 is the hand-wavy .001 m^2 figure, but Sukhoi itself has said it doesn't possess the same level of stealth as the F-22. The PAK also seems to lack complete stealth shaping, and might possibly have a few bright spots (LERX's, nozzles, inlets, IRST).

All of it depends on how much the final version differs from the prototype. I'll admit I did forget to take that into account.

The F-35 at around $100 million per aircraft is based on a projected buy of 2,400+. We do not have numbers of how much the F-22 would have cost based on buys of 360, 500, or 2,400 airframes. Comparing costs is rather problematic.

If the F-35, even just the A, costs less than $100 million that will be wonderful. Personally I've been saying it will cost north of that for some time and while I would be very happy to be wrong so far I'm sticking to it.

The minimum rational F-22 buy was for 360 or so to equip 10 sqdn allowing one per USAF Expeditionary Wing. Flying 5 sqdn of F-22's and 5 sqdn of F-15C for the next 20 years was not a great idea for a number of reasons but did save quite a bit of money and was seen as a reasonable risk by many.

We didn't exactly see figures for upgrading the F-15C Golden Eagles nor the cost for the life extension program. Cutting the F-22 buy was not an absolute cost savings.

In any case a rational procurement policy would note a force structure of say 3,000 aircraft and that on average these fly 30 years so we should buy 100 or so a year. The policy of not buying any tactical aircraft for a generation (other than 187 F-22's) will not allow us to catch up on the retiring aircraft curve. Force structure will be reduced to accommodate the numbers we are able to afford every year. This is not a secret but it's not been factored into the 1,763 figure.

If not the F-22 then the USAF should have been purchasing more F-15 and/or F-16's. I'll personally be shocked if we ever get to more than 10 wings of USAF F-35A's or around 1,100 aircraft. What that does to costs others can project but we did this to ourselves. It's the same with USN and decades of only buying 10 or so ships a year to support a fleet of 300+. It can't be done. The USAF will be lucky to just maintain the planned force structure from the QDR. There's no room in there for 16 combat wings of F-35A's which is what 1,763 equates to. In some years when this reality is more clear to everyone and we can a realistic number of F-35 buys then we'll see how much it actually cost.

SpudmanWP wrote:

The last batch of F-22s cost $150 mil, not $140. By the time the F-35 hits FRP the F-22 (with inflation) would have been pushing $170 while the F-35 will be less than $100. Add to that the increased lifetime F-22 costs over the F-35 and you get a better idea of the F-22's true cost in relation to the F-35.

lb wrote:

The F-35 at around $100 million per aircraft is based on a projected buy of 2,400+. We do not have numbers of how much the F-22 would have cost based on buys of 360, 500, or 2,400 airframes. Comparing costs is rather problematic.

$100m based on whose numbers? The figures that have been put out are $60-70m fly away cost. Anything higher is adding program cost/spares.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

F-35 Pie in the Sky