Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

With robert gates stalling on the F-35 and russia and china are already have prototype 5th generation fighters we need more F-22 now while the production is still open it is rhe only smart option!

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snake4420 wrote:

With robert gates stalling on the F-35 and russia and china are already have prototype 5th generation fighters we need more F-22 now while the production is still open it is rhe only smart option!

Couldn't agree more!

You know, lots of people say we don't have the money for it, but I do think now it might actually help the economy. More production = more jobs (to a certain extent of course). And our planes are falling apart slowly but surely.

Exactly. While it may create/save some jobs, I don't think that it will happen simply because of the Economy. The government and DoD are cutting back on spending (to an extent) and there isn't much of a "need" (get what I'm meaning, I fully support having F-22s for the sake of being prepared). If there was some immediate threat that needed F-22s to defend against, it would be a different story, but with the economy in the shape it is in and with no real threat to American air dominance any time soon, restarting production of F-22s is very unlikely.

I don't get why the US just doesn't drop all the Eagles and get ~500 F-22's.

dragorv wrote:

Exactly. While it may create/save some jobs, I don't think that it will happen simply because of the Economy. The government and DoD are cutting back on spending (to an extent) and there isn't much of a "need" (get what I'm meaning, I fully support having F-22s for the sake of being prepared). If there was some immediate threat that needed F-22s to defend against, it would be a different story, but with the economy in the shape it is in and with no real threat to American air dominance any time soon, restarting production of F-22s is very unlikely.

The high tech jobs it would create would be much better for the economy, than the rapid growth of new Federal jobs, which does little to help growth. As for waiting till there are immediate threats, that's a risky/costly course of action with regards to procurement. It takes time to build the planes, train the pilots/mechanics/technicians, set up the infrastructure, etc... It doesn't do much good if you need a capability now, but have to wait 10yrs for it to be available. I think the 381 F-22 force structure makes the most sense, in terms of capability, value, flexibility, and keeping the fleet from ageing too fast. Obviously, they didn't ask my opinion though.

exorcet wrote:

I don't get why the US just doesn't drop all the Eagles and get ~500 F-22's.

Actually they wouldn't need to replace all F-15C Eagles with an equal number of Raptors. If people are so concerned about the Raptor's sky-high operating costs, then why aren't any complaining about the F-15C? It's only marginally less costly to fly and operate compared to the F-22, and it's not remotely as capable compared to more modern fighters.

I'm all for retiring the F-15C early and replacing it with half as many Raptors, an aircraft of which is significantly more expensive; but it will make up for the costs in upkeep savings. It's far cheaper to operate half as many raptors comparison to the number of Eagles currently in service. The Strike Eagle is still very useful, but the air superiority variants should be retired with that 102:0 kill ratio.

exorcet wrote:

I don't get why the US just doesn't drop all the Eagles and get ~500 F-22's.

--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnPu-kk_eOA#t=3m27s

Laughing

The F-15 may cost nearly as much to operate as a Raptor (I don't know if that's true, but let's say it is), but they're already here, you don't have to buy them and the associated spares. I'm not knocking the F-22, just pointing out that maintenance costs vs capability aren't the only considerations. Also, the F-22 line has already started shutting down in the sense that some of the suppliers are no longer retaining new production capability for subcomponents. So, a cost appears there in trying to build more Raptors, getting that back on line. Again, not saying it isn't worth it, just pointing it out.

The biggest thing to keep in mind, though, is that building more F-22s would indicate that the decision to stop it was wrong. To Washington nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, is as bad as admitting you were wrong; it's a tremendous loss of face, it erodes your power base and since status and influence is all, it can't be tolerated.

Well, the US gov. did do something similar in the late 70's early 80's with the B-1!!! One president stopped it, then the next president brought it back. Now, well this is not the exact same thing, it wouldn't be anything new if this did happen. Just food for thought.....

Reagan overturning a Carter decision isn't the same thing. A whole new team came in, so they could say, "What the other guys did was wrong" (they were correct in this, BTW). This increases status. Keep in mind Reagan was an anomaly, a true Washington "outsider". Not many of those ever get into power.

well spoken aaam

aaam wrote:

The biggest thing to keep in mind, though, is that building more F-22s would indicate that the decision to stop it was wrong. To Washington nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, is as bad as admitting you were wrong; it's a tremendous loss of face, it erodes your power base and since status and influence is all, it can't be tolerated.

You're exactly right and our current SecDef is particularly subject to this mindset. Recall the cancellation of the presidential helicopter replacement AFTER spending billions and procuring a number of airframes. The problem was clearly requirements creep and could have been solved with some tough management, but since it had become political, the VH-71 had to go.

Gates will NEVER admit stopping Raptor production was wrong, sadly. Even having his face rubbed in it by the Chinese will not change his mind.

Well, Gates is likely to leave shortly. So, maybe his replacement will reconsider keeping the F-22 line open. Of course its really up to Congress......

So, do ya think Gates got a walk-around of their 5th gen. J20 stealth fighter

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

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