Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Now i know that the F-15 has gotten a better radar but does it have a greater tracking range than the radar in the F-22? Does the APG 63 v3 even stand up to the Russian radar the Iribis which is suppose to have a 300 km tracking range. Since the F-22 can only carry Six AMRAAM and two aim 9s i think it would be important for the golden eagle to have a greater tracking range than the F-22 to fire BVR and loosen the load of the F-22s.

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mustang65 wrote:

Now i know that the F-15 has gotten a better radar but does it have a greater tracking range than the radar in the F-22? Does the APG 63 v3 even stand up to the Russian radar the Iribis which is suppose to have a 300 km tracking range. Since the F-22 can only carry Six AMRAAM and two aim 9s i think it would be important for the golden eagle to have a greater tracking range than the F-22 to fire BVR and loosen the load of the F-22s.

Reportedly the radar in the F-15 Golden Eagle sees farther than the radar in the F-22, because of its larger antenna. F-22's stealth, though, should allow it to get closer to the targets that an F-15 might see first, without being detected.

The Golden Eagle may have a larger aperture, but the T&R modules in the latest APG-77 are 2 generations (original APG-77 then upgraded with APG-81 tech) ahead of the Golden Eagle. The newer APG-82s are a different story however.

SpudmanWP wrote:

The Golden Eagle may have a larger aperture, but the T&R modules in the latest APG-77 are 2 generations (original APG-77 then upgraded with APG-81 tech) ahead of the Golden Eagle. The newer APG-82s are a different story however.

The APG-77's T/R modules may be 2 generations ahead of the (v)2, but I'm not sure that's true vs. the (v)3.

mustang65 wrote:

Now i know that the F-15 has gotten a better radar but does it have a greater tracking range than the radar in the F-22? Does the APG 63 v3 even stand up to the Russian radar the Iribis which is suppose to have a 300 km tracking range. Since the F-22 can only carry Six AMRAAM and two aim 9s i think it would be important for the golden eagle to have a greater tracking range than the F-22 to fire BVR and loosen the load of the F-22s.

First of all, the Irbis while being a capable radar, isn't on par with the APG-63(v)3, APG-82, or APG-77. The extreme range searches utilitize very narrow beams, and small search volumes, and isn't typical for standard full volume searches. Additionally, there's far less antenna/frequency agility, due to the use of a single beam, and 1-2 TWTs.

Secondly, the F-15 is perfectly capable of carrying 8 AMRAAMs. The tactic the USAF is talking about though, is primarily using the F-22s as the shooters, and the F-15's as the sensors/stand off jammers, with F-15s taking follow up shots.

According to multiple sources, including Avleak, it is USAF that says the Golden Eagle will see farther. In fact, the supposed tactic for joint operations will be Raptors with cold noses in front of the Eagles, taking advantage of the F-15's greater illumination distance for acquisition and targeting. This will make the F-22s almost "invisible" until near the merge when presumably they'll light up. Sort of like the Klingons or Romulans when they decloak.

Apparently antenna size is a significant variable for range with an AESA.

Yep, antenna size and Peak power. And nice Romulan line there btw, haha. But once again, I'm pondering if a superior 'F-22 escort jammer' would be the F-15E with APG-82 (reportedly having a partiuclar mode capability in concert with jamming?), not to mention the CFT-boosted range, IRST (in conjunction w/Jammer unlike the proposed F-15C/D Golden Eagle's layout) and 2nd seat? Although, I might recall seeing something about some F-15C/D potentially being fitted too, with the APG-82 outright?

geogen wrote:

Yep, antenna size and Peak power. And nice Romulan line there btw, haha. But once again, I'm pondering if a superior 'F-22 escort jammer' would be the F-15E with APG-82 (reportedly having a partiuclar mode capability in concert with jamming?), not to mention the CFT-boosted range, IRST (in conjunction w/Jammer unlike the proposed F-15C/D Golden Eagle's layout) and 2nd seat? Although, I might recall seeing something about some F-15C/D potentially being fitted too, with the APG-82 outright?

Well, the role of the F-15's will not be to escort or jam for the F-22. For one thing, USAF hasn't seemed to consider dedicated jamming aircraft all that important, although the Golden Eagles may get a pod optimized for short range to be carried on the centerline station. It will be to support and partner with the F-22 as both are dedicated air superiority aircraft. The F-15s will use their greater radar range and longer endurance to partner with the F-22s stealthiness and considerably higher performance.

Putting in the APG-82V(4) in the F-15C has been proposed and is a doable but more expensive proposition than going with the APG-63V(3). It would be nice if the -15C/Ds to be upgraded could get the engines of the -15E, or better yet the ones for the Ks or SGs. But since only 48 Golden Eagles are funded so far, that's probably a forlorn hope. Regarding IRST, the plan is to install an updated version of the F-14Ds IRST in one of the wing pylons on the C/Ds. Hopefully there is money for that somehwere.

Can't compare F-15 AESA with the F-22 AESA...they have different roles. Additionally if anyone ever thinks the ruski's can make a radar that's better than a western AI radar is smoking some good stuff.

Last I saw the IRST was a centerline station mount on the C model; the navy dropped out of the project effectively canceling it.

-229's would be very sweet indeed...

If you check the FY2011 budget, you will see that 6x APG-82(V)1 units (For F-15Es) were purchased for installation in FY2013. They also bought 14x APG-63(V)3 units for F-15C/D airframes.

aaam wrote:

It would be nice if the -15C/Ds to be upgraded could get the engines of the -15E, or better yet the ones for the Ks or SGs.

The F-15C/D have all be equipped with the PW-220s; 5 of the 8 squadrons of F-15E have the same PW-220 engines. Only the F-15Es built after 1992 have the PW-229s. All the PW-100s were removed from service when the F-16s with PW-220s were sent to AMARC. (They kept the newer engines)

There would be a much better chance of seeing the PW-229 installed in C/D Eagles than the F110 of any type. Getting an F100 to fit in an F100 engine bay is a 1/1 swap. Modifications to allow an F110 into the bay of an F100 would add even more cost to $10Million of new engines for EACH aircraft that needed modifications. (Yes the PW-229 is $5M/Each) So to simply purchase PW-229 engines for 48 Golden Eagles you would need $480 million, plus a bit more for spares, parts, and tooling.

My Two Cents

they're not going to drop a half billion $$ on new engines for 30 year old Eagles.

Just some thoughts.

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

True, that half a billion is much better spent elsewhere.

golden_eagle wrote:

Can't compare F-15 AESA with the F-22 AESA...they have different roles. Additionally if anyone ever thinks the ruski's can make a radar that's better than a western AI radar is smoking some good stuff.

Last I saw the IRST was a centerline station mount on the C model; the navy dropped out of the project effectively canceling it.

-229's would be very sweet indeed...

I wasn't aware that the Navy had abandoned plans to mount the AN/AAS-42 in a fuel tank, After all, they already are familiar with the system (it's also on the AL-1, BTW). I'll include an artist's concept. Boeing also is offering it in a hin mount on their prosed enhancement for future export versions

The F-15 install leveraged the Navy work, and my data on that is about a year old, when Boeing awarded the latest contract. My understanding was that it was going to be mounted in a pylon in a manner similar to how the Israelis do it (I'll include a pic), though not at the same location that they mount their system. I guess the shape of the AN/AAS-42 prevent its mounting the way the Japanese mount theirs.

The IRST location for the F-15s is going to be in a similar pylon location as the F-15K, just as the photo above shows.

No. Once again, the proposed F-15 Golden Eagle IRST pod mount is apparently designed for the CENTERLINE Sta 5. There is NO point on the C/D, per the K/SG IRST config (see photo above). And the Japanese FLIR/IRST(?) as depicted above is not the AAS-42 derived IRST.

And aaam c'mon sir lol, nitpicking aside.... one can call it 'partner or support' or whatever... but any potential F-15 joint-task 'teaming' as is apparently reported thus far at least, could effectively be designated as ESCORT jamming too, in addition to any situational awareness 'partnering, escort, or support'.

And lastly, regarding Navy cutting the Super Hornet's IRST tank.. I dont believe that's accurate.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Golden Eagle Question