Forum: General

I have a couple of questions regarding the Thunderbirds' F-16s.

I understand that the smoke system's oil tank is <a href="http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-687.html">installed where the gun would normally go</a>, but I was wondering how the oil gets to the exhaust? Is there a special pump installed somewhere to get the oil there? Also, how is the oil line routed from the tank to the exhaust?

From what I've <a href="http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-687.html">read</a>, the dogfight switch is used to activate the smoke system. Being a humble civilian, please don't laugh when I ask if the switch has to be held in position for the smoke system to stay on or if it's push once for on, again for off. I'd think it would be the latter, but I just don't know.

One last question for now. Assuming the US was suddenly thrust into a major conflict and the T-birds' F-16s were needed for combat use on the front lines, how long would it take to make these aircraft combat ready again? I've heard it would take something like 48 to 96 hours to return a Blue Angels jet to combat ready status.

Thanks for everything in advance!

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72 hours.... and God help us if they need the T-birds jets.

Cylon

Joined: Feb 01, 2007 - 02:38 AM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

I was talking with a Blue Angel engine technician during an air show one weekend and asked about the smoke system.

The smoke is triggered by a switch on the stick, connected to a 24V pump, that pumps the oil through a small tube routed through the aircraft to a point near the engine exhaust nozzle. (I forget the GPM rating of the pump and I didn't ask if it was a momentary switch or on a relay)

If I remember right she stated that each Hornet was loaded with about 40 gallons of oil for each show.

I don't think the USAF would ever put the Thunderbirds' Vipers back into combat status. They'd give them to the ANG or AFRes because they have F100-220s. The USAF don't think the Blk32s are powerful enough for combat!?

Cylon and bix, thanks for the quick replies. Thanks to the janitors, too for adding the appropriate links in my original post to the appropriate topic Smile

. I can always count on this community to come through!

Cylon, yes, I have to agree with you on that! bix, I don't know what the USAF is thinking when they say that those jets don't have enough power. Your post gave me a couple of other questions.

First, just how much smoke oil is carried on a typical demonstration flight?

Second, what is the flow rate of the oil when the smoke system is on?

Third, what type of oil is used? I've heard of diesel fuel somewhere, but I don't know if that's correct.

Last, but not least, how the heck is it filled? I've never seen a "smoke oil filler cap" on a Thunderbird or Blue Angel jet Smile

. Also, I can't imagine some guy with 5 gallon jerry cans pouring smoke oil into an opening on the Viper's spine Wink

so there has to be some way that they pump the stuff into the jet, right? I just can't imagine dedicating a whole fuel truck to smoke oil duty, but I can't think of what they would use.

I know I ask a lot of questions, so thanks for taking the time to answer them!

Joined: Feb 01, 2007 - 02:38 AM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

I'm not sure on the quantity, or flow, but I'll check into that. (I have someone in mind to ask)

I can tell you both the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels use "1010" oil. (pronounced: ten,ten)

LUBRICATING OIL,AIRCRAFT TURBINE ENGINE,PETROLEUM
-or-
MIL-L-6081, GRADE 1010

As for filling, they remove a panel to access the oil tank where the ammo drum would go. To fill the tank they use two air driven pumps, attached to two seperate oil drums. The 55 gallon drums of 1010 sit in the back of a truck. The truck is towing a "low-pack" or low pressure compressor to provide air pressure to the pumps. The CC goes from jet to jet filling the tanks with a garden varity filler hose and squeeze-nozzle. I imagine when one barrel is empty the other begins to feed, or they move the hose to the second pump. The truck they used at thier last show had about 10, 55 gallon drums in it. After 2 shows (1 practice, 1 saturday) only 3 of the drums were still full. (I'll let you do the math if you wish)

We use 1010 oil for F100 engine preservation oil for long term storage or shipment. Many may use, or have heard of "Pickeling" an engine; 1010 is what we use. You change the engine's fuel supply from fuel to 1010 oil while it is running at IDLE, for a time ,so that all the fuel in the engine's systems is replaced by the oil. This reduces the chances of corrision, and makes the engine "non-hazardous" for transport or storage.

1010 was used as engine oil for earlier jet engines. Today's standard USAF fighter oil is MIL-L-7808.

bix, you never fail to amaze me! Thanks for the info and the quick reply!

parrothead wrote:

Being a humble civilian, please don't laugh when I ask if the switch has to be held in position for the smoke system to stay on or if it's push once for on, again for off. I'd think it would be the latter, but I just don't know.

The only dumb question is one that isn't asked! Wink

The switch is a 3-position type (outboard, center, and inboard) that stays put at each position. It's pictured below on an A-model(?) throttle.

(image from the Photo Library)

LinkF-16SimDude, thanks much! I figured as much - you don't need the T-Bird pilots trying to hold a switch in position while they try to fly close formation!

Why not, they fly with almost full down trim to begin with (yech....)

Cylon

Two reason for that...one, much easier to fly formation with the stick out the dead zone and 2) an unexpected release of the stick and the plane pitches down...away from lead.

LinkF-16SimDude wrote:

parrothead wrote:

Being a humble civilian, please don't laugh when I ask if the switch has to be held in position for the smoke system to stay on or if it's push once for on, again for off. I'd think it would be the latter, but I just don't know.

The only dumb question is one that isn't asked! The switch is a 3-position type (outboard, center, and inboard) that stays put at each position. It's pictured below on an A-model(?) throttle.

It's a 3 position switch, and is normally in the off (center) position. The outboard position (Dogfight) automatically overrides current avionics preferences and places the radar in Air Combat Mode (ACM), arms the gun, and cools the AIM-9 seeker heads. The HUD also presents symbology for gun/missile.

The inboard position (Missile Override) does basically the same thing as Dogfight, except the gun is not automatically armed, and the radar is placed in Range-While-Search mode. The intent here is to prepare to engage an air target a little further out than Dogfight.

By having this switch on the throttle grip, it keeps the pilot from having to make several switch selections on the MFDs, and ICP.

There are a few switches on the throttle that the pilot can use to maneuver between different screens on the MFD's for different purposes. I don't know most of them however, I just know it can be done cause I did it on accident once.

Actually, they are on the stick. The Block 40 added the DMS (Data management switch) for added screen controls. While you can select any screen via the MFD buttons, toggling the DMS switch would cycle the right or left display through 3 predefined screens (3 each that is...DMS right would cycle the right MFD, DMS left would cycle the left MFD).

This is from memory from my one and only Block 40 ride in 1996, so if I am mistaken, somebody feel free to correct me... Very Happy

Not sure about the pre-blocks (ie any bird before block 40) however...totally blanked out on those since they don't have the DMS switch (at least they didn't, but I think the CUPID upgrade added a b40 stick to the B25/30/32 jets to handle the EW suite upgrade)

LinkF-16SimDude, isn't the dogfight switch configured such that one direction is momentary, and the other direction and the center position 'fixed' ?

Joined: Feb 01, 2007 - 02:38 AM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

As far as Smoke-oil quantity, 50 Gallons available, they use about 40. For a 15 minute show that is about 3 GPM. (or so I'm told by my source........ Wink

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Forum: General

Thunderbirds aircraft