Forum: General

Roscoe,

The pre-block 40 jets (C models) do have a DMS (and have for as long as I know) which does the exact same thing as the Block 40. CUPID added the CounterMeasures Switch (CMS) to the older Cs for a hands on way to dispense chaff/flares. It also added an elbow switch aft of the "slap" switch on the left bulkhead.

Otherwise, you got it right. DMS left cycles the Left MFD pages and DMS right cycles the Right MFD pages. DMS aft moves the SOI back and forth from the MFDs, and if in a proper avionics mode, DMS forward sets the SOI to the HUD....but let's not open up that big can of worms!!!

Habu,

Not to butt in (ok, I am), but the dogfight switch doesn't have a momentary direction. It stays in the position it's put in. The speedbrake switch will re-center on its own from the aft position. That may be the one you are thinking of.

V/R

Gus

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Thanks again for all the info guys!!!

Gus wrote:

CUPID added the CounterMeasures Switch (CMS) to the older Cs for a hands on way to dispense chaff/flares. It also added an elbow switch aft of the "slap" switch on the left bulkhead.

I knew that Very Happy

(now that you said it)

Gus wrote:

DMS aft moves the SOI back and forth from the MFDs, and if in a proper avionics mode, DMS forward sets the SOI to the HUD....but let's not open up that big can of worms!!!

I can't think of anything that gnerated more confusion than SOI selection. More than once a test pilot got hung up because of block differences in SOI handling. Made for painfiul debriefs...

Roscoe,

It also made for some serious cursor zeros when we used VRP or VIP and the SOI was in the radar..radar slew gains vs HUD slew gains...Pretty funny watching that stuff bounce around the HUD trying to control the VRP!!

Now that we have EGI, I can't remember the last time I used VRP.

Gus

What about the engine. Do they all have the same engine type, or more importantly, I assume, the thrust available? I would think that it could be a challenge for a pilot to stay in formation if he has either much more or less powerful engine than the rest of the formation.

Joined: Feb 01, 2007 - 02:38 AM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

They are a stock F100-PW-220/-220E engine aside from the polished external nozzle segments (Turkey Feathers) and oil pipe.

See: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_photos_album47-photoabk.html

See also: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Organizations/ ... -DFRC.html

Thunderbird Aircraft -Engine History
Republic F-84G - Allison J35 A-29 – 1953-1955
Republic F-84F - Wright J65W-3 – 1955-1956
North American F-100C – Pratt & Whitney J57-P-21A - 1956-1964
Republic F105B - Pratt & Whitney J75-P-3 or -5 – 1964 (6 shows)
North American F-100D - Pratt & Whitney J57-P-21A - 1964-1969
McDonnell Douglas F-4E - General Electric J79-GE-17 – 1969-1974
Northrop T-38A – General Electric J85-GE-5 – 1974-1983
General Dynamics F-16A Blk15 – Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 - 1983-?
General Dynamics F-16A Blk15 – Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 (Re-engined) ?-1992
(GD)Lockheed F-16C Blk32 – Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 – 1992-Today

Engine Manufacturer – Total years of Thunderbird service
Wright – 1
Allison – 2
General Electric 14
Pratt & Whitney 34

Does anyone know when the engine upgrade was done to the Thunderbirds "A" Vipers? Should have been after the -220 OCU employment in 1988 and prior to their 1991 season?

I don’t think the Thunderbirds will ever use the F110 in the Viper. It has poor low oil pressure tolerance, and will size if the engine is operated at MIL in a negative-G situation for more than a 20 seconds. The F100 will operate at MIL with low oil pressure for 30 seconds or more. A big consideration for demonstration flying.

Thanks bix. Very interesting. I assume that this means that they all have the same engine and that the DEEC ensures that a certain trottle setting will give the same thrust in all planes. What if one of the engines are a little tired and has, for arguments sake, a 10% drop in max thrust. Will the top 10% of the trottle motion, before the Augmenter cicks in, basically not make any difference to the thrust? Will the DEEC allow the engine to go above the defined 100% thrust?

Joined: Feb 01, 2007 - 02:38 AM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

No, I think you're seeing it backwards.

Even if the engine is tired, it will adjust to maintain so much thrust at MIL. A new engine will not work as hard to maintain that but the it will keep MIL regardless. It is a set thing.

Understand? The more "tired" the engine gets, the harder it will run it to maintain the desired thrust for any given setting. As a result Engine wear will accelerate the more that engine ages. The more wear, the harder it runs, the harder it runs, the faster it wears......... get it? The wear curve gets quite steep as the engine core reaches it's cycle life but the power output will stay constant. (6-8 years) If the engine can not produce the required thrust for any reason a FAULT is declared and reported.

As an engine ages the thing that suffers is fuel consumption. (Much like an auto engine) When the engine looses compression, it needs more fuel to make the same amount of power.

So if your Thunderbird Viper has a brand "new" engine, or an "old" engine they will both make the same thrust at 85%, MIL, MIN AB, or MAX AB. (Give or take just a bit....)

This is slightly off-topic, but I found an old photo of the Blue Angels I took back in 1987 - I thought some here might get a kick out of it...

Thanks bix, that made it clear. Clever system.

habu2 wrote:

LinkF-16SimDude, isn't the dogfight switch configured such that one direction is momentary, and the other direction and the center position 'fixed' ?

Not to my knowledge. That's the Speed Brake switch you're thinkin' of. "Closed" (forward) and "Open" (center) are fixed positions but the "Override" position (aft and hold) is momentary. Override pops the boards full out (+/- 60 degrees IIRC) as long as the switch is held full aft. Take your thumb off the switch and the boards go back to the normal open position.

......and once again I should probably read the WHOLE thread before pontificating. Thanks Gus!! Wink

Active Member Joined: Apr 08, 2004 - 10:40 PM Posts: 201

A Tunderbird jet holds 58 gallons of smoke oil, the smoke drum is where the ammunition drum was, the cannon is also removed to accomidate smoke oil plumbing. The plumbing ends up on the left side of the engine exhaust.

Thanks for all the info, guys!

Forum: General

Thunderbirds aircraft