Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ornet.html

F-16.net Sponsor

Must be hard on France now its favourite little dictator in the region has been removed and hanged for his crimes, Surely there's another middle eastern dictatorship they can flog arms too, how about Iran...?

I fail to see why they would want to get rid of their Mirage 2000-9s. Those are pretty awesome aircraft.

discofishing wrote:

I fail to see why they would want to get rid of their Mirage 2000-9s. Those are pretty awesome aircraft.

They are good planes but the UAE can afford upgrades. You also have to realize that in some parts of the world each program is a new opportunity for bribery and kickbacks. Do they really like the SHornet or did Boeing offer a bribe or are they just trying to get a bigger bribe from the French?

Why don't they go for more F-16 Block 60s?

discofishing wrote:

Why don't they go for more F-16 Block 60s?

Excellent question !

I don't see the sense in getting a mixed fleet of fighter aircraft. I'd recommend buying more F-16Es. What can a Rafale do that an F-16E can't?

discofishing wrote:

I don't see the sense in getting a mixed fleet of fighter aircraft. I'd recommend buying more F-16Es. What can a Rafale do that an F-16E can't?

Since the UAE don't have an aircraft carrier you are right ! 80 Vipers +60 Rafales don't make any sense.. My feeling is that in the end the common sense will prevail and the UAE would opt for more Block 60.. They invested lot of money in AESA development ...

discofishing wrote:

I don't see the sense in getting a mixed fleet of fighter aircraft. I'd recommend buying more F-16Es. What can a Rafale do that an F-16E can't?

The only tangible advantage to the Rafale over the Blk 60 is no stings attached usage i.e. they don't do what we like, we cut them off. This is the same advantage the Typhoon and Rafale have when going against the US designs in foreign competitions. There's always the Sword of Damocles (Uncle Sam's blessing) over buying US fighters.

I wouldn't say that this is the only advantage offered by the Rafale. The Rafale is basically a newer and more advanced design with a better airframe and superior performance and payload capabilities. It's MMI is praised as being top notch by French, but also foreign pilots. It's avionics suite is quite advanced and well integrated. Sensor fusion is another significant advantage touted by the French as is the OSF to which there is no real equivalent on the F-16 blk 60. Spectra is also a quite advanced and capable EW suite with some features not found on the F-16 blk 60 including MAWS and LWR. The aircraft's signatures are lower as well thanks to a couple of LO treatments in the EM and IR area, includig LPI style RF systems coupled passive sensors and emission management. In the end I see just three advantages for the F-16 blk 60 and these are costs, a slightly better radar (difficult to elaborate on) and in theory a broader range of weapons. I would also go for advanced AMRAAM variants over the MICA EM, but with Meteor on the table the advantage would likely shift back to the Rafale in that area.

Scorpion82 wrote:

I wouldn't say that this is the only advantage offered by the Rafale. The Rafale is basically a newer and more advanced design with a better airframe and superior performance and payload capabilities. It's MMI is praised as being top notch by French, but also foreign pilots. It's avionics suite is quite advanced and well integrated. Sensor fusion is another significant advantage touted by the French as is the OSF to which there is no real equivalent on the F-16 blk 60. Spectra is also a quite advanced and capable EW suite with some features not found on the F-16 blk 60 including MAWS and LWR. The aircraft's signatures are lower as well thanks to a couple of LO treatments in the EM and IR area, includig LPI style RF systems coupled passive sensors and emission management. In the end I see just three advantages for the F-16 blk 60 and these are costs, a slightly better radar (difficult to elaborate on) and in theory a broader range of weapons. I would also go for advanced AMRAAM variants over the MICA EM, but with Meteor on the table the advantage would likely shift back to the Rafale in that area.

I basically agree with everything you said..I like the RAFALE great fighter .. But Discofishing has a point.....For the UAE ,the Block60 is more than enough..

Quote:

I wouldn't say that this is the only advantage offered by the Rafale. The Rafale is basically a newer and more advanced design with a better airframe and superior performance and payload capabilities. It's MMI is praised as being top notch by French, but also foreign pilots. It's avionics suite is quite advanced and well integrated. Sensor fusion is another significant advantage touted by the French as is the OSF to which there is no real equivalent on the F-16 blk 60. Spectra is also a quite advanced and capable EW suite with some features not found on the F-16 blk 60 including MAWS and LWR. The aircraft's signatures are lower as well thanks to a couple of LO treatments in the EM and IR area, includig LPI style RF systems coupled passive sensors and emission management. In the end I see just three advantages for the F-16 blk 60 and these are costs, a slightly better radar (difficult to elaborate on) and in theory a broader range of weapons. I would also go for advanced AMRAAM variants over the MICA EM, but with Meteor on the table the advantage would likely shift back to the Rafale in that area.

You have any sources? Your claims on the Rafale seem pretty generalized.

MAWS and LWR have been integrated these days on tons of platforms. If the F-16E possess MAWS, which I think it does, then its EOMS probably have the ability to detect lasers too. What do you mean by LPI RF systems? I know what the acronyms standard for. Are you talking about radar, radios, or what? Which aircraft has better mission radius?

Overall, I think the aircraft are pretty much on par with each other. F-16E probably does somethings better than the Rafale and vise versa. UAE already operates the F-16E, I just figured it be more economical and logistically sound to operate more F-16Es. The French build world class combat aircraft, but I just don't think the Rafale offers a giant leap in capability to warrant its purchase by the UAE. Now if the UAE had operated nothing French fighter aircraft, then I would recommend the Rafale.

@discofishing,
what kind of sources are you looking for? Yes the claims are generalised like many others. I agree that more blk 60 would be a better choice than using to many different types, though the UAE is following this policy for some time now, for a good reason.
And no MAWS doesn't mean LWR and there are in fact not that many operational fast jets using LWRs or MAWs.

Example of reference source for MAWS (the popular AAR-47 for example which can be installed on sorts of tactical aircraft) that has integrate LWR capability:

http://www.atk.com/datasheet_pdfs/aar47.pdf

The system is similar to the AAR-57 CMWS which has similar installation/physical footprint as the AAR-47, but doesn't YET (keyword there) have laser detection ability.

Here's another interesting on ASE (APR-39B(V)2)
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solut ... /SISCM.pdf

Quote:

includig LPI style RF systems coupled passive sensors and emission management.

What do you mean by this? I would consider passive sensors NPI (NO probably of intercept). What are you applying LPI capability to? The radar?

@discofishing,
thanks for the links. I'm aware that AAR-47 and AAR-57 have been linked to teens, but I want yet to see one with the system fitted. I was of the impression that the USAF F-16 blk40/42 were equipped with such devices, but I'm not sure about this and it doesn't tell us anything about other variants including blk 50+/52+ or 60. Danish F-16MLU use the UV based AAR-60 MILDS-F. So in other words options exist, but whether they are taken or not is yet another question.

RF systems include radar, jammers, radios, radar altimeter etc. It has been reported that the RBE2 radar and Spectra jammers includ LPI functions and that the rad alt is optimised for "discretion". The passive sensors come on top of that and may further reduce the reliance on radiation in certain conditions.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Another setback for the RAFALE?