Forum: F-35 Lightning II

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When you give foreign aid that nation often sees the money used to purchase goods and services from the donating nation. Foreign aid is thus often a back door method to subsidize a given industry or even agriculture. There is various recent literature indicating foreign aid, especially food aid. helps to destroy local industry and agriculture.

It's perfectly fine to be against foreign aid or to be against back door corporate welfare. However, it's not one sided. Indeed many argue in Israel that long term it's not in their interests as the military aid must be spent on US products which hurts or eliminates certain Israeli industries. There's an M-1 production line in Egypt and an F-16 production line in Turkey. These are a direct result of military aid and these nations could just as easily be producing and operating Leopard 2's and Euro aircraft.

There are other benefits as well. Again perfectly fine if anyone is against foreign aid for whatever reason but to portray it as completely one sided is incorrect. Israel in particular would probably benefit long term (20+ years) from reduction and elimination of US military aid. Israel is one of the largest arms exporters in the world and has a world class defense industry. To argue foreign aid is one sided and does not benefit US industry and retard the growth of some Israeli industries would be wrong. Israel in fact produces almost everything it requires for it's defense needs besides aircraft and tank engines. One could argue the foreign aid is the only thing keeping them out of the aircraft industry- they already are a world leader in UAV production, development, and sales.

In any case money spent on dealing with Russian nuclear materials is money well spent. Aid to Iraq and Afghanistan are clearly in our national interest. Cutting it all is a non starter. In the case of food and other humanitarian aid it's also in our national interest. However, long term we should be investing in agriculture of developing nations instead of destroying their domestic agriculture with foreign aid and US and EU farm subsidies.

I can see your point. I know it's not as black and white. That's why I'm for a temporary suspension of foreign aid. At some point the American people have to be part of national interest right? If we continue to blow money like this, we might not have the ability to give aid in the future. We gotta focus entirely on us for at least a little while (5 years of so).

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Prinz_Eugn wrote:

I don't like the aid to Israel, seems like it's of dubious value to hand them money when that's one of the primary reasons everyone hates us in the middle east. At least it's helping us out getting more F-35's out the door.

I'm pretty sure that were we to stop military aid to Israel, that the attitudes towards us wouldn't change. I don't subscribe to the notion of throwing friends under the bus, so that enemies might hate us a little bit less.

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I'm pretty sure that were we to stop military aid to Israel, that the attitudes towards us wouldn't change. I don't subscribe to the notion of throwing friends under the bus, so that enemies might hate us a little bit less.

Agreed. But there might come a time where Israel might need our help more than ever, and I want American to be able to come to its aid when this happens. That whole region is a ticking time bomb. The US government needs to be proactive right now so it can handle whatever the future holds.

I don't know why we are building the F-35 IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE!!!just build 60 block F-16 and make them stealthy like the F-15 silent eagle

Are you being serious snake? A remarkable comment if so.

snake4420 wrote:

I don't know why we are building the F-35 IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE!!!just build 60 block F-16 and make them stealthy like the F-15 silent eagle

You do realize that Block 60 F-16s cost more than F-35As right, and the F-15SE isn't anywhere in the same league in terms of stealthiness.

Last edited by thg on Aug 19, 2010 - 08:09 PM; edited 1 time in total

shep1978 wrote:

Yes Popcorn didn't both the F-15 and 16 get tested for real for the first time in the middle east many decades ago. Just a shame it'll be to late to arrive to help stop Irans nuclear idiocy as it'd be a useful asset.

I was thinking the same thing, but I'm skeptical that Israel will launch strikes against Iran within the next days. The Bushehr project is being implemented under the full control of the International Atomic Energy Agency and is fully protected against all possible risks, concerning the spread of nuclear weapons. Russia’s foreign minister stressed that the leaders of foreign countries have a similar opinion. Even a spokesman for the US administration Mark Toner, stressed that the US government had acknowledged the fact that the construction of the nuclear power plant in Bushehr is a project dealing with civilian nuclear power.

Please, keep it on topic, the thread is about the (potential) order of 20 F-35A for the IDF/AF, not about US FMS, US foreign politics, F-16s or silent Eagles. If you have nothing useful or intelligent to comment on the subject, don't post anything.

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I don't know why we are building the F-35 IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE!!!just build 60 block F-16 and make them stealthy like the F-15 silent eagle

Hmm. Why do you have the number 420 in your screen name?

If someone has a price quote for 3,000 new block F-16's to compare to the projected costs for 3,000 or so F-35's I'm not aware of it. Stating what an F-16 costs today based on the total package foreign sales of limited production runs is not stating what at F-16 costs.

joost wrote:

Please, keep it on topic, the thread is about the (potential) order of 20 F-35A for the IDF/AF, not about US FMS, US foreign politics, F-16s or silent Eagles. If you have nothing useful or intelligent to comment on the subject, don't post anything.

Thanks joost.

The final PUC/UPC cost for 20x IDF F-35A (not including the infrastructure and buildings) will in the end be greater than the stated whatever the latest per unit contract price is, as stated today in any press release..

How it is budgeted and paid for though, as a final product, is another discussion. Sure..

And off topic: as for what an F-16 block 60+ would cost today vs today's ordered block I/II F-35A... it's not misinfo. F-16 per unit cost would be cheaper and arguably much more effective due to more armaments and greater range (with actual CFT and external drop tanks) being cleared.

With all due respect. Just trying to keep things honest and factual.

And once again: the actual future F-35A cost will be determined by how many actual F-35 buys there will be annually from say, FY13-FY17, and as estimated to be ordered under the total Program (a number to be clearly different from what is assumed still today).

Inside Intel / Who wants the Stealth fighter? By Yossi Melman 19 Aug 2010

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/fe ... r-1.308907

"Despite its sky-high price, the entire air force has lined up behind the F-35. Its critics, though, are keeping a low profile.

Is this a sign of "groupthink," or the presence of a guild? All the former air force chiefs are lining up behind the current Israel Air Force commander, Maj. Gen. Ido Nechushtan, and unequivocally supporting the decision to acquire F-35 Stealth fighters. Not a single one of them has questioned the wisdom of the decision, made jointly by the Israel Defense Forces and the Defense Ministry, even though it will cost around $2.5 billion, or NIS 10 billion.

The price tag for each plane, according to the ministry, is around $100 million. But there are experts, including Yiftah Shapir of Tel Aviv University's Institute for National Security Studies, who expect the cost to soar to around $150 million per plane, bringing the total cost of the 22 planes the IAF is seeking to obtain to over $3 billion.
Eitan Ben Eliyahu, who commanded the IAF in the 1990s, told Channel 10 television this week that the acquisition - which still requires cabinet approval, but will almost certainly get it - is vital, as it will ensure Israel's "military, security and force superiority, and also its deterrent capability." It is hard to find opponents of the deal, and especially those willing to express their views publicly.

Shapir told the Chinese news agency Xinhua that it is not entirely clear whether the Stealth is more maneuverable than the F-16. A retired major general who has voiced original opinions in the past - but would only speak on this issue on condition that he not be named - said the decision reminds him of a syndrome common to the IDF and many other armies: They prepare to fight the next war using the tools and thought patterns of the last one.

"By the time the planes arrive, in another five years, the next-generation plane will already be unmanned," he said.

Another problem is that the planes, which are meant to improve the IDF's strategic assault capabilities, will be operational only in 2017. By then, Iran will already have nuclear weapons, and it is highly doubtful that Israel would dare to attack a country with nuclear bombs. On the other hand, if Iran does not have nuclear weapons by then, it probably never will have them - and if so, why are the planes needed?

There are also people who say it would be better to spend this astronomical sum, which will be allocated from the American aid budget, on other IDF needs - a point raised in this column about a year ago already.

But Lt. Gen. (res. ) Dan Halutz, who commanded the air force until about six years ago and then became IDF chief of staff, rebuts these criticisms with convincing arguments. First, he said in an interview with Haaretz, this clearly was not a case of "groupthink" or a mobilization of the air force lobby.

"If I as chief of staff had decided to go ahead with this purchase, people would have said 'the blues' prevailed," he explained, referring to the air force's blue uniforms, in contrast to the army's green. "But the fact is that the General Staff, including the 'green' chief of staff Gabi Ashkenazi, decided there is a need for this plane. I have no doubt that they took all the various considerations into account and weighed the pros and cons.

"The decision to equip ourselves with the Stealth is not dependent on any given future war, perish the thought," he added. "Planes age, and the air force has to refresh its fleet of planes every 35 to 40 years, regardless of any strategic judgment or war plans to be made in the future. And in any case, 2015 will arrive more dramatically than we think, and Israel and the air force must be at the technological forefront.

"It's the easiest thing in the world to say we are wasting tens of billions of shekels, but of course that isn't true," he continued, noting that the entire purchase will be funded by American aid and be spread out over several years. If, as some expect, the period is 10 years, that would lead to spending of $200-300 million annually.

Halutz realizes that it will not stop at 22 planes: Once the first batch arrives, the IAF will again seek to enlarge its forces by acquiring additional planes.

Nevertheless, he stressed, "the most important question is the alternative. Let's say we drop the purchase of the Stealth planes. Advanced F-15 jets also cost close to $100 million per plane. And let's say we drop the purchase of the Stealth planes and leave the money where it is. Can this money be used for anything else? These funds can't be used to purchase submarines, because the United States stopped building diesel-powered submarines, and therefore Israel has built and is building its submarines in Germany, using German aid funds and its own budget."

Nor does Halutz think the needs of other IDF units - tanks, artillery, intelligence and others - will be affected by the decision: It is reasonable to assume, he said, that the General Staff and the chief of staff considered their interests and equipment needs as well.

"It's hard to give tactical answers to strategic questions, and certainly not in yes-or-no terms," he concluded. "Therefore, it's not possible to make an unequivocal determination about the Stealth. But to me, at any rate, it's clear that the acquisition entails great advantages, and the plane is essential for Israel."

fiskerwad wrote:

shep1978 wrote:

thg wrote:

I'm not a fanboy!!!!!!!!!!!

Is there an ignore function available? Its just that I'd rather not waste my time reading childlike responses like these.

See that link labeled report to moderator? That's your ticket (for all of us)
fisk

Aint that the truth fisk Laughing

!

back on topic:

So are we sure that the version that is being contracted for in the F-35A and not the B?

(I have been away from the news for a while, sorry if I missed that being stated earlthe version

lb wrote:

When you give foreign aid that nation often sees the money used to purchase goods and services from the donating nation. Foreign aid is thus often a back door method to subsidize a given industry or even agriculture. There is various recent literature indicating foreign aid, especially food aid. helps to destroy local industry and agriculture.

Itamerica should halt military and civillian aid to all allies for atleast 5years, inorder to make recession sustainable and the economy to stage a recovery. every nation should pay for their own expenses in times of such dire consequences. Israel should pay for these toys from their own pocket.economic sanctions on Iran are enough to keep them at bay of becoming evena tinker of a threat to the so-called national interests being sought from invading iraq and bombing afghanistan even further back from stonage.Saddam was a buddy to Bush Senior and mr.bin laden was uncle sam's secret operative used in the days of russia invading afghanistan.i guess everyone knows this already, its just that we are being ignorant and feel helpless as our top decision makers never yield do they?

america should rethink on its foriegn policy big time, cos currently everything is counter productive.current focus should be on afghanistan only. all resources should be employed there to eliminate the safe haven and deny sanctuary to all extremist elements there. No more free lunches for anyone period!

That said F-35 is a great jet and should be seen flying offically in various brances of ou the military soon.

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See that link labeled report to moderator? That's your ticket (for all of us)
fisk

Absolutely correct! Thg has been banned and some of his posts have been removed from the conversation.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Israel: Barak approved in principle purchase of 20 F-35