Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Order for 20 aircraft is almost a fact, final approval by Cabinet expected at the end of September.

Joost

Israel's Barak approves U.S. F-35 fighters purchase

(2010-08-15)
(Reuters) -
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak approved in principle on Sunday the purchase of 20 U.S.-built radar-evading stealth fighters in a deal worth $2.75 billion, defense ministry officials said.

The F-35 warplanes are expected to be delivered between 2015 to 2017, an Israeli defense official said.

Israeli leaders have spoken of arch-foe Iran potentially developing a nuclear weapon by mid-decade, suggesting that the F-35s would not be used for any preventive action, but rather to bolster the country's deterrence.

A ministry statement said Barak "approved in principle the recommendations of the Israel Defense Forces and the Defense Ministry to move ahead" with the purchase.

The stealth fighter, made by Lockheed Martin Corp, "will afford Israel continued air superiority and maintain the technological edge in our region," the statement quoted Barak as saying.

The defense official said Israel planned to buy initially 20 planes, estimating the total price tag at $2.75 billion, to be covered by an annual U.S. defense grant of $3 billion.

Officials predicted final approval of the deal could be given by the end of September by a panel of Israeli government ministers.

Israel would be the first foreign country to sign an agreement to buy the F-35, or Joint Strike Fighter, outside the eight international partners that have helped to develop the plane.

The deal has been in negotiations since September 2008, when the Pentagon first approved the sale of 25 fighters with an option for more in the coming years.

The F-35 is designed to avoid detection by radar and could play a role in any Israeli effort to knock out what it regards as the threat to its existence posed by Iran's nuclear program. Tehran denies Western and Israeli allegations that it is trying to produce atomic weapons.

Defense Ministry Director-General Udi Shani said incorporation of Israeli technologies into the F-35 had played a role in Barak's decision to buy the aircraft.

Israel, widely assumed to have the Middle East's sole nuclear arsenal, also had considered a cheaper option -- the purchase of a modified version of Boeing's F-15 fighter, an aircraft it already deploys.

(Additional reporting by Dan Williams, Writing by Ori Lewis)

© Copyright 2010, Reuters

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Quote:

The defense official said Israel planned to buy initially 20 planes, estimating the total price tag at $2.75 billion, to be covered by an annual U.S. defense grant of $3 billion.

So the Israelis get $3 billion a year from US taxpayers? I know Israel is a strong ally, but that's BULLSH!T! That's gotta stop! The US can't afford stuff like this anymore. Let the Israelis pay for the F-35s out of their own pocket.

If the US is giving Israel military aid every year, why should it matter which US equipment they decide to buy with it?

That's an interesting point of view to hold (that of being anti US foreign aid to various allies, yes, even to the Israeligov despite justified criticisms) which I've always discounted as biased and not sound. Do you understand the size of the totality of the US economy? Sure, we (US) are currently spending almost 2 Trillion USD annually (choke) on our federal debt credit card and staying the course (simply unsustainable), this will remain the fact regardless of any withdraw of US military actions from current operations and especially regardless of whether US cuts off all foreign aid tomorrow.

Tax payer bills, growing US debt and Federal spending therefore have barely nothing to do with foreign policy planning and US foreign relations, support and aid. This is another topic for another forum however, of course.

With regards to F-35 and Israel, I'm personally in the camp that US should not be the first to introduce 5th gen fighters to the region at this point and should make this a leadership policy example to push region-wide on part of a broader platform. And tactically speaking, how are 20 block III jets (the first of which will be pre-SDD mature) of a brand new make going to make logistical sense? IMHO, IDF should either get/seek a 5-8 yr F-35 MYB to replace older front-line jets (on which I would personally be critical of), or seek another national defense/tacair recapitalization strategy. Two Cents

which one, christ i don't want to deal this $H1T, please say A Devil

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If the US is giving Israel military aid every year, why should it matter which US equipment they decide to buy with it?

It doesn't matter to me what they get. I'm actually for letting them have F-35s. My problem is with the money. We don't have it. It's not there. Chances are that $3 billion grant to Israel will be a $3 billion debt increase for the tax payers. I just think this is crazy and irresponsible to give any sort of money to Israel at this point in time.

One very likely outcome will be the F-35 getting its baptism of fire early in its operational life. Nothing like actual combat experience to help prove and refine the design.

Yes Popcorn didn't both the F-15 and 16 get tested for real for the first time in the middle east many decades ago. Just a shame it'll be to late to arrive to help stop Irans nuclear idiocy as it'd be a useful asset.

geogen wrote:

IMHO, IDF should either get/seek a 5-8 yr F-35 MYB to replace older front-line jets (on which I would personally be critical of), or seek another national defense/tacair recapitalization strategy. Two Cents

Once again those in the know and making the decisions (the IDF this time) disagree with yet another of your long winded, buzzword ridden, nonsense posts.

(Please stop this "if we did it my way" stuff, its getting ridiculous)

Israeli JSF Deal Denotes Larger Training, Logistics Element Posted by Noam Eshel at 8/17/2010

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest

"The Israeli purchase of 20 Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighters, to be designated F-35I, comes with an integral support package, sustaining the aircraft through its service life for $2.75 billion total.

As International Editor Robert Wall noted, Israel will get the F-35I at a flyaway cost of $96 million, slightly above the estimated average $92.5 figure predicted by the Pentagon. This cost reflects the inclusion of specific Israeli systems. More indigenous systems to be included in future batches could further increase the cost of the F-35I.

The cost cited by the Israel Ministry of Defense reflects $150 million cost per aircraft, inclusive with the acquisition of necessary infrastructure, training, logistics and support.

In fact, four Israeli pilots have already explored the F-35 on the flight simulator at Ft. Worth. Israeli pilots will begin training on the new aircraft by 2014 and the first aircraft are expected to arrive in Israel by 2015. The first squadron could become operational in less than two years at one of the Israeli Air Force (IAF) southern air bases.

The purchase will be funded by U.S. military aid to Israel. Israel originally planned to buy 75 such planes, with an initial option of 25 aircraft. The current decision trims this plan by five aircraft. It has not been decided yet if the five planes will be included in future orders."

discofishing wrote:

So the Israelis get $3 billion a year from US taxpayers? I know Israel is a strong ally, but that's BULLSH!T! That's gotta stop! The US can't afford stuff like this anymore. Let the Israelis pay for the F-35s out of their own pocket.

Top US foreign aid recipients in 2007:

Iraq $8.2 billion
Afghanistan $5.8 billion
Israel $2.5 billion
Egypt $2 billion
Russia $1.6 billion
Sudan $1.2 billion

Total aid in 2007 (military and economic) $42 billion.

Full PDF
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... 0s1263.pdf

Congress is about to give more aid to GE and Rolls Royce to put the F-136 into production than Israel gets for a year.

stereospace wrote:

Russia $1.6 billion

Wow, your American government is as dense as the UK government. We here pay for the Indian space and schools programs whilst you guys help fund the PAK-FA and other Russian arms products. And we wonder why our international status (and money) is slipping away...

I think the Israeli money is all military aid, the Russian aid as far as I can tell is for mostly civil stuff. I think we also foot the bill for a lot of nuclear weapons decommissioning, too.

I don't like the aid to Israel, seems like it's of dubious value to hand them money when that's one of the primary reasons everyone hates us in the middle east. At least it's helping us out getting more F-35's out the door.

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I don't like the aid to Israel, seems like it's of dubious value to hand them money when that's one of the primary reasons everyone hates us in the middle east. At least it's helping us out getting more F-35's out the door.

I'm not just singling out Israel. It's time the US Govt immediately suspend aid payments like this to all of our allies. Not forever, just until we're in a better shape.

When you give foreign aid that nation often sees the money used to purchase goods and services from the donating nation. Foreign aid is thus often a back door method to subsidize a given industry or even agriculture. There is various recent literature indicating foreign aid, especially food aid. helps to destroy local industry and agriculture.

It's perfectly fine to be against foreign aid or to be against back door corporate welfare. However, it's not one sided. Indeed many argue in Israel that long term it's not in their interests as the military aid must be spent on US products which hurts or eliminates certain Israeli industries. There's an M-1 production line in Egypt and an F-16 production line in Turkey. These are a direct result of military aid and these nations could just as easily be producing and operating Leopard 2's and Euro aircraft.

There are other benefits as well. Again perfectly fine if anyone is against foreign aid for whatever reason but to portray it as completely one sided is incorrect. Israel in particular would probably benefit long term (20+ years) from reduction and elimination of US military aid. Israel is one of the largest arms exporters in the world and has a world class defense industry. To argue foreign aid is one sided and does not benefit US industry and retard the growth of some Israeli industries would be wrong. Israel in fact produces almost everything it requires for it's defense needs besides aircraft and tank engines. One could argue the foreign aid is the only thing keeping them out of the aircraft industry- they already are a world leader in UAV production, development, and sales.

In any case money spent on dealing with Russian nuclear materials is money well spent. Aid to Iraq and Afghanistan are clearly in our national interest. Cutting it all is a non starter. In the case of food and other humanitarian aid it's also in our national interest. However, long term we should be investing in agriculture of developing nations instead of destroying their domestic agriculture with foreign aid and US and EU farm subsidies.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Israel: Barak approved in principle purchase of 20 F-35