Forum: Off-topic

First introduced in 1973, and still selling more than all the other 4'th Gen fighters with no end in sight..

WASHINGTON—The Obama administration plans to sell advanced F-15 fighter jets to Saudi Arabia but won't equip them with long-range weapons systems and other arms whose inclusion was strongly opposed by Israel, diplomats and officials said.

The proposed $30 billion, 10-year arms package, which would be one of the biggest single deals of its kind, has been a source of behind-the-scenes tension during months of negotiations. Israeli officials have repeatedly conveyed their concerns in private that the U.S. risks undermining its military advantage by equipping regional rivals with top-flight technologies.

U.S. officials say they provided "clarifications" in recent weeks about the deal to help damp Israel's qualms. Two officials close to the negotiations said Israel still had some reservations, but that the country isn't expected to challenge the sale by lobbying Congress, which can hold up the deal or push for assurances of its own. The administration is expected to formally notify Congress of its plans as early as next month.

The information-sharing with Israel is part of a longstanding commitment by successive U.S. administrations to maintain its military edge in the region. Congress has the power to block any weapons sales deemed detrimental to Israel's military advantage.

The tussle is a window into the White House's delicate balancing act in the Middle East. The administration has championed advanced weapons sales to Gulf states as a way to check Iranian power. In addition to Saudi Arabia, the U.S. has moved to sell arms to the United Arab Emirates and other Gulf states, as well as support on a smaller scale the Lebanese army and Palestinian security forces in the West Bank.

Iran is far from the only security challenge facing Saudi Arabia, which has considerably beefed up its standing army since Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, when the ruling Saud family began to see potential border troubles as a more serious threat.

Earlier this year, Saudi armed forces sustained heavy losses during extended skirmishes with Yemeni rebels on the southern border, the kind of flare-up a new crop of fighter jets would seemingly be ideal to fight.

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First introduced in 1974 and still selling well would be correct. There were certainly more orders for Vipers and Flankers over the recent years.

Scorpion82 wrote:

First introduced in 1974 and still selling well would be correct. There were certainly more orders for Vipers and Flankers over the recent years.

Thanks..I was referring to European 4 Gen fighters Gripen Rafale and Typhoon

Why not look at the fact that the F-15 is still the best (outside of the F-22?)

shingen wrote:

Why not look at the fact that the F-15 is still the best (outside of the F-22?)

We are talking about an airframe that is 40 years old.....

What's interesting about this deal though is that the Saudis were fools to buy Typhoons in the first place. They have F-15's and then they take another type that is pretty similar into service. There's no way that there is any performance advantage that justifies putting a second type into service. Then, after paying for the Typhoon and the logistics of having two similar types in service, they buy more F-15's compounding the original error. Once you've bitten the bullet and put the best available interceptor in service, why not buy more Typhoons? If you're defending your home territory against attack, why not go all Typhoon? It's obviously nothing but bribery and kickbacks. The thing is, they could have had the mother of all kickback schemes with Tranche 3. They say to EF, "How much for Tranche 3?" EF tells them a number, they double it, pay for CAESAR, TVC, uprated engines, full A2G, everything else, and get half the money back under the table. Both sides can cover it by pleading cost overruns. It seems it was Boeing's turn to bribe, my guess is they buy more Typhoons next time.

More interesting for me is the question how will these F-15s be configured? More like the F-15K/SG or SE? The article leaves a lot of question marks about that. They say the same as for other customers, but not as advanced as the USAFs own Eagles. Does it me AN/APG-63(v3) vs AN/APG-82(v1) or is there more about it, the weapons apart?

What does it matter? You and I care more about it than the customer does. For them it's kickback, pure and simple. Honestly, if they wanted defense against Iran they should have taken more Typhoons unless they need A2G.

Well it might be that they intend to replace the Tornado GR.4 in the mid term and the F-15E would make a lot of sense here given its range and payload capabilities. I think that the RSAF is interested in a balanced mix of capabilites. AA alone doesn't win you wars. As a striker the F-15 is simply ahead of the Typhoon and offers some design inherent advantages due its size. And it is of interest for me because I would like to know whether the SE finally got its first customer or not.

I doubt it's SE or Boeing would be crowing about it. If the F-15 is a better balance, why buy Typhoons in the previous purchase? It just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I wonder if they decided they needed the best possible interceptor as they can't afford a single leaker to get at their oil facilities or wheter it was just a bribery issue. It would be an interesting analysis to see why they bought it.

Maybe they just want to satisfy anyone so they buy from the British this time and from the Americans that time, so anybody gets its share. It might not even have to do with the capabilities of the platform themself. Who knows whether the F-15 will be used in the AA role at all. Maybe they simply bought Typhoon as their new premier fighter and the F-15 as their new striker. Who knows. I agree that it would be interesting to learn about the reasons for their decisions, but I think we'll not know about it for some time to come.

[quote="shingen"]What's interesting about this deal though is that the Saudis were fools to buy Typhoons in the first place.

The decision to buy the Eurofighter was merely a political message to the US.. If you don't give us what we want, we will buy it somewhere else as we have the MONEY . ..Also in this case if the US Congress had succumbed to the allmighty Israel lobby and blocked the deal , they would have gone for the RAFALE which is also a superb ground attack fighter. .Not in the same class as Strike Eagle in terms of range and payload , but could also pose a serious threat to Israel in the hands of wrong people.

I think Scorpion has got it. Saudi has both Tornado IDS and ADV versions. I can see the Typhoons replacing the ADV and supplementing the F-15Cs (newly re-engined F-15's I might add) with the new batch F-15E's replacing the IDS and supplementing their existing F-15S models. This would eliminate the concerns over too many types in service with just F-5's, F-15's and Typhoons.

I wonder what kind of fatigue life and or corrosion issues the Saudi C/D Eagles may have. The desert air would probably cut down on the corrosion factor, but have they used up their airframe life by driving them hard enough to warrant replacement by the Typhoons?

I'm curious if such an F-15 airframe not sold with say AIM-120D variants, could be custom-integrated with Meteor instead?

I think its just politics being played out, BAE`s greased the Saudi`s palms in two HUGE defence deals, now it`s Boeings turn LOL. It`s way of things in that part of the world. Been there, worked there, got the T-shirt.

Forum: Off-topic

F-15 FMS Sale to RSAF