Forum: F-35 Lightning II

bjr1028 wrote:

They changed to that system because of severe defense cuts. Think of it as a return to true FAA operations. As for the system, its already in place and the French, Spanish, Italians, Brazilians, Argentinians, and Indians use it.

Aren't they facing huge cuts now? Seems like the wrong time to return to the Glory Days when the F-35B is already a good fit for them.

You'd also have to figure out what to do with the RAF who is also supposed to operate B's. Mixed fleets are not good, especially for shrinking militaries.

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In case they really decide to cancel F-35B then they will ditch the ramp, thats for sure as there isn't room on the deck for both a ramp and two catapults.

I don't think the RN will really go for the Super Hornet. Never say never, but the F-35B would be the most viable option, particularly with regards to the joint fleet with the RAF. Supporting another fast jet type in service is certainly not the best they can do.

Well it seems the Royal Navy might not be stupid after all. It appears that they are considering cancelling their order for the F-35 JSF and instead ordering the F-18F Silent Hornet.

Bring back the Jaguar. Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAVDOBWtBuU

One thing to consider about 'cost savings' is the money spent already by UK for participating in F-35 development (2 Billion UK pounds). Then there is the cost to change the build of two CVFs. Cost of all the development work done for operating F-35Bs from CVF with training already underway for deck crew I believe. Cost for buying three test F-35Bs already. Add on cost for new training regime for conventional carrier pilots with whatever conventional aircraft purchased (rather than much simpler training for all F-35B pilots who will be able to land anywhere at any time).

The change can be made but I doubt the overall cost savings will be there. For example the CVF does not make steam for a conventional steam catapult so EMALS (or UK equivalent) will need to be installed at some expense.
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"Design and development of a three variant family of JSF aircraft and associated Autonomic Logistics systems to meet the requirements of USAF, USN, USMC and UK Joint Forces commenced in 2001 following signature of a collaborative Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) by the US and UK Governments and the start of the System Development and Demonstration (SDD) phase.

The selection of Lockheed Martin as the JSF air system prime contractor included a ‘teaming arrangement’ with Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems to collectively form Team JSF. An integrated, but separate, propulsion contract was awarded to Pratt and Witney (P&W) for the F135 engine, with sub contractor work for Rolls Royce including a substantive new lift fan engine development.

Whilst other partner nations have since joined the programme at Level 2 and 3 entry arrangements, only US and UK requirements drive the SDD baseline solution.
Commercial Aspects

The SDD contract with Lockheed Martin was signed in October 2001. Its overall value is some $41Bn. This is the total US development contract cost, to which the UK will contribute $2Bn."

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactS ... aftjca.htm
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_M ... ghtning_II

"The United Kingdom is the sole "Level 1" partner, contributing US$2.5 billion, which was about 10% of the planned development costs under the 1995 Memorandum of Understanding that brought the UK into the project."

The RN FAA is good at making the most of what it has/will get and planning for the worst:

Non-Subscriber Extract
Converteam develops catapult launch system for UK carriers By Tim Fish 26 July 2010

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/naval ... _1_n.shtml

"The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) is investing in the development of an electromagnetic catapult system for the Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers in case procurement of the F-35B short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) version of the Joint Strike Fighter is abandoned.

Power conversion specialist Converteam UK announced on 20 July that in 2009 it was awarded a GBP650,000 (USD1 million) follow-on contract to continue the design, development and demonstration of high-power electrical systems for its EMCAT (electro-magnetic catapult) system and that work on the contract was nearing completion.

The naval director at Converteam UK, Mark Dannatt, told Jane's on 22 July that a small-scale EMCAT system had been completed in 2007 to prove the operation of modern linear motor, energy stores and control systems. Since then, extensive testing of the system has been successfully undertaken, as well as further work at the request of the MoD to enable Converteam UK to scale the system up to a full-size catapult suitable for the RN's new aircraft carriers.

"The EMCAT is designed to fit in the space envelope that has been allowed within the aircraft carrier for a catapult. The intention of building and designing a small electromagnetic catapult and then developing the technology so that it could be scaled up was always a de-risking exercise in case the MoD did not choose the STOVL aircraft or it was considered necessary to launch other types of aircraft from these ships. The option would then exist to fit a catapult and operate conventional carrier-borne aircraft," Dannatt said."

lamoey wrote:

bjr1028 wrote:

Not hornets, cutting JSF-B (STOBL) and JSF-C (CV) from the DoN budget in favor a continued Super Hornet to bridge the gap to FA-XX.

"Continued" - I don't understand. There is no US fighter in the RAF/RN to my knowledge. Buying Super Hornets at this stage may not be that much of a cost saving anyway.

Besides the F-35B? If the Marines cancel their order, most of the development costs will be spread amongst the British and italian orders making them effectively unaffordable. The A model would probably also see a price increase slightly since ~800 JSFs will no longer be purchased.

FA-18E/Fs!!! - what kind of sad Boeing fantasy world is this thread living in - we may as well just mod the Typhoon. The F-35B is the ONLY Harrier replacement and pretty sure we will see it over here as planned.

Quote:

Now, that's more like it. Start from scratch and make a new committee aeroplane. Avoid this annoying economy of scale. Join the French and hope for the best. Have worked great in the past Bang Head

I don't think so ,the SH would be cheaper than the Rafale anyway , there is huge numbers in service in the US compared to 20 or so Rafales on board CDG
more important is that , Boeing wants to keep the assembly lines open ( in case they lose the big contract in India for 126 fighters ) and therefore they may agree to profound changes to accommodate the British Government's special needs which would provide benefits to UK industry.

"Boeing may agree to profound changes to accomodate the British Government's special needs which would provide benefits to UK industry." duplex said. What are these special needs?

spazsinbad wrote:

"Boeing may agree to profound changes to accomodate the British Government's special needs which would provide benefits to UK industry." duplex said. What are these special needs?

First and foremost, UK job creation.

The UK involvement in F-35B & LiftFan development has created a lot of jobs in the UK already.

spazsinbad wrote:

"Boeing may agree to profound changes to accomodate the British Government's special needs which would provide benefits to UK industry." duplex said. What are these special needs?

Such as:
- Fuselage component assembly
- Final Assembly for British jets in Brough or Salmesbury
- Pirate in place of LM's IRST
- CEASAR/captor instead of APG-79
- EJ-230/270 instead of the F414 line.
- BK27 instead of M61A2
- British communication systems
- Integration of ASRAAM, Meteor, Storm shadow, Alarm, and brimstone.

Considering the relationship between Boeing STL and BAE and both the Eurojet and CAPTOR were designed around the size of the F404 and APG-65 all of which are very much doable.

Wouldn't it just be a conventional wing Typhoon at that point?

spazsinbad wrote:

The UK involvement in F-35B & LiftFan development has created a lot of jobs in the UK already.

Yeah, which is why Super Hornets would be silly. The current plan is still the best. It would be ridiculous to have BAE manufacturing the all the F-35 empennages in the UK, when they aren't even operating them...

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

UK to ditch F-35B for Superhornet