Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

The F-35 has not been $200m for a while. It is not even $200m when you look at the Weapon Sys Cost (which includes a lot of one-off items and Eglin-related training buys). Throw on top of that the fact that ALL parties involved have said that CAPE blew the numbers, this will bring the price down even further.

[rant]Hopefully, the new Congress, with many more (R)'s next to their name, will tell the Def Aq subcommittee to go pound sand and vote in the full FY2011 request. Think about it, they wanted to cut the F-35A even though it's the most successful (in testing) variant to date. [/rant]

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You all do realize the question isn't if the F-35 will do enough, its about selling something to the Japanese that makes both them and us happy with the deal. The F-22 will always have the performance edge over the F-35.

Raw performance edge, yeah, but not as a system. They are not directly comparable in that sense. The F-35 will make both parties happy, because it's going to be a fraction of the cost of an F-22J debacle, and the F-35 is specifically set up for foreign partners buying into the program.

What does the F-35 have the F-22 is not getting? The F-22 changing the MLD to an EODAS like the F-35. The F-22 supercruises much faster. The F-22 has the radar modes of the F-35 migrating over to their hardware. More wing, more thrust, and more radar evasion with the F-22. There's plentyo room to differentiate an F-22A from an F-22J.

360 SA via EODAS (while it may be possible to get SOME of the EODAS functionality in the MLD, this is currently UNFUNDED), an IRST/FLIR via EOTS, the ability to drop a 2k bomb, ease of adding new weapons via UAI, a massive worldwide user-base to facilitate cost effective upgrades, etc, etc.

Japan, the customer, isn't looking for those very few caveats you mentioned. They want the one-trick pony. If they do want more its actually moving towards more flexibility in the future.

EODAS is not operational today, its a capability being created in the present for the future. The F-35's EODAS sensors are an evolution of the F-22's MLD. The F-22 had its MLD built modular so that it could be upgraded in the future. Until all the lines of code are written and EODAS is realized I don't see the F-22 getting the capability. Baby steps and crawling before walking.

You may not know this, seeing that you have not done the research, but the EODAS has been working for several years. Also, as we speak it is being integrated into CATBIRD. The only code to be written re:EODAS is it's integration module into the F-35 avionics suite.(which is already done and why it's going into CATBIRD).

That, and EODAS (made by NG) is much bigger than the F-22's MLD (made by LM) which is why LM has never said it can do the same job as EODAS, just some of it's A2A functions. The idea of EODAS may have come from MLD, but is a different product from a different company.

madrat wrote:

What does the F-35 have the F-22 is not getting? The F-22 changing the MLD to an EODAS like the F-35. The F-22 supercruises much faster. The F-22 has the radar modes of the F-35 migrating over to their hardware. More wing, more thrust, and more radar evasion with the F-22. There's plentyo room to differentiate an F-22A from an F-22J.

Making two F-22 versions is dumb, plain and simple. An F-35 will be part of a much bigger population and consequently be much cheaper to maintain (economies of scale). Having a fleet of unique aircraft is not the way to go, even if the Japanese toyed with the idea. They will be much, much better off with the F-35.

Getting all those upgrades into an F-22J will only drive the cost skyward, going from more expensive than the F-35 to ridiculously more expensive than the F-35.

The F-35:
-Cheaper to operate (1 engine)
-Cheaper to maintain (autonomic logistics)
-Cheaper to buy
-More advanced out-of-the-box avionics
-2,000 lb munition internal capability
-Does not require repealing an act of congress to get to get sold
-Solid upgrade path (and cheaper, too)
-Longer range/can take off from a boat (depending on version)
-IRST/DAS that exists
-Integrated laser designator/rangefinder
-Really cool helmet that does really cool stuff

The F-22 is better A2A, sure, but it's also not cheap or exportable practically.

Hell,looking this in the performance sense is missing most of the point, since there are many other factors involved in procurement- mostly MONEY and POLITICS.

madrat wrote:

Japan, the customer, isn't looking for those very few caveats you mentioned. They want the one-trick pony. If they do want more its actually moving towards more flexibility in the future.

EODAS is not operational today, its a capability being created in the present for the future. The F-35's EODAS sensors are an evolution of the F-22's MLD. The F-22 had its MLD built modular so that it could be upgraded in the future. Until all the lines of code are written and EODAS is realized I don't see the F-22 getting the capability. Baby steps and crawling before walking.

Well said, madrat.

It's always a shame to hear supporters of a particular product trying to educate a customer as to why something they feel is required (and willing to pay for) should instead be replaced with what in their view is better off for them in reality. Therein lies the issue on the whole export F-22x point.

And I'd concur that while F-22's MLD can never be an EODAS, it actually doesn't have to be. LM's upgraded MLD will be sufficient, just as the EODAS will be sufficient for the F-35 even when something MORE superior hits the market in say 5 yrs from now, by the next manufactuer. That's what MLU's are for depending on the requirements. Although, I do concur the F-22 needs a LW IRST in the short-term, even if it's hung on an external point. Alternatively, that same point should be able to hang the new Sniper ATP-SE. Combined, those sensors operating in sync would provide superior passive BVR sensing than a stand alone MW EOTS.

And yes... still waiting for LRIP IV's PUC price.

Still waiting.. me too.

EODAS depends on IIR technology mated to the helmet visualization. That's not due for several more years.

Wrong... It's being integrated on CATBIRD as we speak and has been developed & tested in both ground and airborne labs for YEARS.

http://www.defencetalk.com/northrop-say ... -km-28618/

Quote:

The DAS F-35 software that includes algorithms for all JSF functions was delivered to Lockheed Martin Corporation earlier this year.

They are looking at the F-35, too. It was never an F-22-or-bust kind of thing.

madrat wrote:

EODAS depends on IIR technology mated to the helmet visualization. That's not due for several more years.

Sheesh, can't you even do a tiny bit of research before mashing the keyboard, is Google really that hard to use??

geogen wrote:

Well said, madrat.

What was well said? He's got just about every so called factual statement wrong so far.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

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