Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Putin says 3x cheaper, more range and more maneuverable than F-22 Smile

http://www.air-attack.com/news/article/ ... alogs.html

Even assuming that's true, doesn't mean much if the Raptor finds it first/carries the 9x......

F-16.net Sponsor

I don't know how someone can get excited by such claims, let alone from a politician. Don't hold your breath on it and even if the T-50 turns out to be more manoeuvrable and offering a longer range that doesn't mean it can measure up against the F-22. That it will be cheaper is not really surprising, but it takes much more to become the pinnacle in aerial combat.

I laughed at the three times cheraper claim, infact I laughed so hard my sides hurt Sad

If you can buy a mature, operational T-50 for Flyaway Unit Cost of $48m USD in 2008 dollars, more power to you.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

Like soldiers say; don't forget, often weapons are made by the lowest bidder.

Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean it's better.

Just because the price that's being touted his lower doesn't mean the actual delivery costs will be as low. Remember that cost in the early stages are typically overly optimistic. Remember that politicians and manufacturers often start with an underbid just to get a project going to hide the real costs. Remember that they are just salesmen.

Just because something allegedly is cheaper to start with doesn't mean it's going to be more expensive in the long run.

Typically cheaper products are inferior.

Often buying something that is cheaper in the short run; often ends up being more expensive than the alternative in the long run.

I bought a cheap level at the hardware store. When I got home I cut and screwed a few boards together. Something didn't seem right, so I stepped several steps back and looked at my work and it looked like a drunk or stoner had done the construction. I carefully examined the level and the bubble seemed sticky. I could change the angle of the level in the bubble would stay the same place up to about 3° shift. I promptly took the cheap Chinese made level back to the hardware store; and bought a more expensive superior American-made level that much more accurately measured the level.

When one of my neighbors first bought a Yugo he was bragging about how cheap it was and what great gas mileage it got; and at the same time he snobbishly scolded others for squandering so much money on gas guzzlers that were environmentally unfriendly. However in the long run he was very disappointed and we got the last laugh so much so that I had sympathy for his pathetic purchase; though I'll never forget his snobbish hypocritical behavior. His car from day one didn't work right. It was constantly breaking down. It was almost impossible to get parts for it. Most of the parts he needed were not in stock in parts stores, so he had almost exclusively deal with the dealership. Hardly anyone would work on his vehicle, so he had to almost exclusively have this work done at the dealership. His car broke down so much that he was late for work so much that he got fired. When the car was about two years old and probably had less than 30,000 miles on it it started spewing black, blue and white smoke as it started running rich and burning oil.

My slightly more expensive truck never left me stranded and never required repairs beyond normal maintenance and wear and tear. In the long run my truck was cheaper, more reliable, more environmentally friendly, and about as fuel-efficient. My truck with nearly 100000 miles was spewing less pollution than the Yugo with about 30,000 miles. My truck with nearly 100000 miles was getting nearly the same gas mileage as a Yugo with 30,000 miles. He said by the time he got rid of the vehicle he spent about $10,000 on repairs. Whereas during the same time frame I probably spent about $1500 on repairs. My vehicle was old when he bought his new Yugo; my vehicle was still in good shape and running when he finally sold his Yugo to the junk yard fo $25.

Like they say; you often get what you pay for.

However. Not that I'm saying that the Sukhoi is any worse or any better. It should be much cheaper for the Soviets and the Chinese to match the F-22; because the F-22 trail blazed the technology and much of the technology is publicly available and it appears much of it has been acquired by espionage/theft. I suspect the T-50 is inferior; but I wouldn't bet on it. One should always respect a potential opponent, and be careful not to underestimate them.

geogen wrote:

If you can buy a mature, operational T-50 for Flyaway Unit Cost of $48m USD in 2008 dollars, more power to you.

But you can't.

exec wrote:

geogen wrote:

If you can buy a mature, operational T-50 for Flyaway Unit Cost of $48m USD in 2008 dollars, more power to you.

But you can't.

That's my gut feeling too... was just making the point and putting it into actual USD$$ perspective. We'll have to wait until 2015 though to see what the Flyaway Unit Cost will be for an operational, mature, T-50 P-F. Respects-

Even at 1/3 the price, its still comparitively 4 times more expensive considering Russia's defense budget is only 1/12th of America's.

Yet then again for comparison sake, said 1/12th and growing budgets has a bigger buying power offset, unit per unit. Less spent per troop, etc. While the PF will most likely have substantially higher than $48m URF in 2008 USD (being 1/3 FY09 Raptor example), there could indeed be far more global sales in future than being automatically written off as in some camps of thought today. Although it's probably premature for such long term potential acquisitions (world wide) to be assessed, imo.

He didnt said what F-22's price. Price with R&D included? Then it is almost 350million$. So T-50 will cost almost 120million$. That is above 100million$ they talk earlier.

No way T-50 fly away cost could be 1/3 of F-22.

milosh

Agreed. Putin not specified F-22's price he was talking about.

100$ millions per unit for PAK-FA in nothing more than speculations. It's also probably price which is estimated for export version (FGFA), not for "domestic" aircraft intended for Russian Air Force.

Quote:

No way T-50 fly away cost could be 1/3 of F-22.

Why? What is the real price for F-22?

primorsky wrote:

milosh

Agreed. Putin not specified F-22's price he was talking about.

100$ millions per unit for PAK-FA in nothing more than speculations. It's also probably price which is estimated for export version (FGFA), not for "domestic" aircraft intended for Russian Air Force.

Quote:

No way T-50 fly away cost could be 1/3 of F-22.

Why? What is the real price for F-22?

The per unit price for an F-22 is ~$140 million. That would mean that the PAK FA would have to be <$50 million, which is completely unrealistic.

wrightwing

Quote:

The per unit price for an F-22 is ~$140 million. That would mean that the PAK FA would have to be <$50 million, which is completely unrealistic.

187 F-22 Raptors were be built at a cost of $360 million per aircraft, isn't? 140$ million for each F-22 was estimated price for mass production.
Please correct me if i wrong.

primorsky wrote:

wrightwing

Quote:

The per unit price for an F-22 is ~$140 million. That would mean that the PAK FA would have to be <$50 million, which is completely unrealistic.

187 F-22 Raptors were be built at a cost of $360 million per aircraft, isn't? 140$ million for each F-22 was estimated price for mass production.
Please correct me if i wrong.

If USA today want to order more Raptors, price would be $140 million not $360 million.

R&D was paid earlier by tax money.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Sukhoi T-50: 3x cheaper :)