Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

I've hear that they are going to forgo the JHMCS for the F-22 in favor of the system going into the F-35. I've also heard that the F-22 will NEVER get a helmet mounted sight because of "problems with integration" (which I think is BS as if there's a will there's a way). Any definitive information from someone who knows?

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No bucks, no Buck Rogers. Lots of things can be done, but someone has to fess up a fund site or two to pay for it. DOD has almost no money. We are flying 50 year old tankers, 40 year old C-130s, 40 year old E-8 airframes with motors that belong in a museum. 25 and 30 year old C-5s etc etc etc. 25 year old fighters. F-22 was delivered without EOTS and the cheek arrays so as not to bust arrival costs. Given what it has done so far I would rather see investment into getting legacy and new A2G weapons put into it.

Active Member Joined: Nov 22, 2004 - 09:20 PM Posts: 134

sferrin wrote:

I've hear that they are going to forgo the JHMCS for the F-22 in favor of the system going into the F-35.

Even at this relatively early stage, the F-22 has proven to be so dominant that I'm not surprised that its JHMCS integration has been postponed indefinitely. If the F-22 ever has enough of a need for this capability, then it'll get it; this applies to both the JHMCS and the HMDS, whichever system they end up selecting (if any). And since this capability has been delayed anyway, the selection might as well be the HMDS if it proves to offer a real advantage.

sferrin wrote:

I've also heard that the F-22 will NEVER get a helmet mounted sight because of "problems with integration" (which I think is BS as if there's a will there's a way). Any definitive information from someone who knows?

Well, there is always a possibility that the F-22 may never get it, but if the intended implication is that it's impossible to integrate on the F-22, then that's just crazy talk. Rolling Eyes

Here is what Dozer had to say about this:

http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index. ... #msg151121

In a recent exercise I read of. A single F-22 went against three F-16C's with (simulated) high off boresight (HOB) missiles and HMDS. The F-22 shot down two F-16's then, in a near simultaneous firing of missiles the remaining F-16 and the F-22 shot down each other.
Advocates for the F-22 to be armed with these features of HOB Missile and HMDS found another reason to push for the F-22 to have these.

Robert Cook, thanx for the reference on wisdom from Dozer.

Adrian

sferrin wrote:

I've hear that they are going to forgo the JHMCS for the F-22 in favor of the system going into the F-35.

You heard wrong, JHMCS is not going into the F-35. The HMDS is. I'm simply noting this because they are very different systems.

checksixx wrote:

sferrin wrote:

I've hear that they are going to forgo the JHMCS for the F-22 in favor of the system going into the F-35.

You heard wrong, JHMCS is not going into the F-35. The HMDS is. I'm simply noting this because they are very different systems.

Actually you read wrong. Read what I said again, S-L-O-W-L-Y this time. Rolling Eyes

sferrin wrote:

checksixx wrote:

sferrin wrote:

I've hear that they are going to forgo the JHMCS for the F-22 in favor of the system going into the F-35.

You heard wrong, JHMCS is not going into the F-35. The HMDS is. I'm simply noting this because they are very different systems.

Actually you read wrong. Read what I said again, S-L-O-W-L-Y this time. Rolling Eyes

Your right, sorry, I was reading too fast. I'll leave the post though as most everyone confuses the two systems. No need to be an a$$ when your responding though.

checksixx wrote:

No need to be an a$$ when your responding though.

Well if that's not the pot calling the kettle black.

Last edited by checksixx on Jul 30, 2007 - 08:32 PM; edited 1 time in total

You need to medicate yourself and relax. From the start I simply said you heard wrong as you indicated you heard something...In other words I thought your SOURCE was incorrect. So again...stop being an a$$.

Edit: Everyone, for the record, I misread what Sferrin wrote above and mistakenly told him that his source was wrong. I retract that as Sferrin did not mis-speak as I originally thought.

Active Member Joined: Nov 22, 2004 - 09:20 PM Posts: 134

avon1944 wrote:

In a recent exercise I read of. A single F-22 went against three F-16C's with (simulated) high off boresight (HOB) missiles and HMDS. The F-22 shot down two F-16's then, in a near simultaneous firing of missiles the remaining F-16 and the F-22 shot down each other.
Advocates for the F-22 to be armed with these features of HOB Missile and HMDS found another reason to push for the F-22 to have these.

First, let me say that I totally support arming the F-22 with HOBS and HMDS. One of the reasons that I've always favored the F-22 is that it dominates in virtually every aspect of fighter performance, aside from strike capability (which is not its intended mission anyway). It would be more than a little strange--downright silly, really--if the F-22 ends up being the only modern or semi-modern fighter that is never equipped with such a lethal system.

Having said that, I don't think that this specific training incident helps our cause. I don't know what the initial setup was, but if it was intended as WVR training, then a 3:1 exchange ratio against HOBS-equipped adversaries does not make for a good case in point. The general concept is that dogfights should be avoided because they are a great equalizer between different fighters, and furthermore that HOBS almost makes maneuverability obsolete in the minds of many. However, even when WVR, F-22 pilots can still locate the enemy, position their aircraft advantageously, and shoot down the enemy before they can effectively respond most of the time (there must have been some reason that one F-22 was able to take down three F-16s). Would having HOBS and HMDS on the F-22 have helped prevent that last F-16 from taking an aimed shot? Perhaps, if it would have made the F-22's first two kills quicker, but the F-22 would only be able to carry two AIM-9Xs anyway.

Unfortunately, it won't be easy to convince certain people of the requirement--the same people that the USAF has spent years convincing that the F-22 will be able to avoid this type of combat in the first place. It's never easy to explain the complexity and unpredictability of combat. For instance, I doubt that the USAF had originally envisioned F-22s using supercruise to sprint back and forth to tankers so that they could more continuously loiter over hostile airspace to provide sensor coverage, even after expending all of their BVR missiles (they're not AWACS or Rivet Joints, but it turned out that being closer to the action, they do some things better than both).

IIRC that 3v1 encounter happened durin a Red flag some years back and the USAF wanted to see how the Rapror would do in a scenario where it would have to figt until it had expended all its missiles.It was pretty much a given that the Raptor would be shot down and to defeat 3 F-16s in WVR isn't too shabby.

popcorn wrote:

IIRC that 3v1 encounter happened durin a Red flag some years back and the USAF wanted to see how the Rapror would do in a scenario where it would have to figt until it had expended all its missiles.It was pretty much a given that the Raptor would be shot down and to defeat 3 F-16s in WVR isn't too shabby.

3 F-16s with AIM-9X and JHMCS to be more precise.

Furthering Mr Cooks argument I remember reading on this forum a senior member pointing out that the F-22 has a much better chance of getting into a favorable position(i.e an enemy's rear quarter) compared to the F-35. Hence currently F-22's only fly with the Mike variants of the Sidewinder. Better for the handicapped fellow to get the HMS system than the one who can already kick your behind with legacy techniques.

Angels225 wrote:

Furthering Mr Cooks argument I remember reading on this forum a senior member pointing out that the F-22 has a much better chance of getting into a favorable position(i.e an enemy's rear quarter) compared to the F-35. Hence currently F-22's only fly with the Mike variants of the Sidewinder. Better for the handicapped fellow to get the HMS system than the one who can already kick your behind with legacy techniques.

Even the -9M variant doesn't need the F-22 to get behind a target, as it's an all aspect missile. It just has a much narrower cone off boresite, than the -9X.

Angels225 wrote:

Furthering Mr Cooks argument I remember reading on this forum a senior member pointing out that the F-22 has a much better chance of getting into a favorable position(i.e an enemy's rear quarter) compared to the F-35. Hence currently F-22's only fly with the Mike variants of the Sidewinder. Better for the handicapped fellow to get the HMS system than the one who can already kick your behind with legacy techniques.

Yes, one of the reasons why the F-22 didn't get the helmet and 9X is because it least needs it, thus legacy fighters got the priority. The USAF, knowing that the limited numbers of F-22s with it's many advantages, should never have to get close with anyone in a real fight.

They also knew that should the F-22 ever have to fight WVR, for whatever reason, it can win using it's "legacy weapons" (9M and M61A2) along with it's incredible maneuverability/agility/nose pointing advantage as proven many times over in tests and exercises.

My personal view is the F-22 should have got the helmet and 9X at the very beginning because weapons are just as important as the aircraft. To have such an incredible and capable fighter without the best weaponary is like King Leonidas of Sparta, instead of having a 32-inch sword, wields a 12-ich bowie.

Except everybody else compared to the F-22 is like an average kid wielding a sword. The Raptor, like King Leonidas, has the attributes of a very athetic warrior to win in hand-to-hand combat even with a bowie.

Just wait until he gets a very nice sword (9X)…

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 and helmet mounted sight.