Forum: Off-topic

In the spirit of the "Old airframes with new technology" thread I figured why not a fantasy thread about Cold War era fighters. Area 88 came to mind and fits the theme. Your mission is to take a Cold War era airframe* and update it with kit to fly as a mercenary for the Area 88 team. Your mission, to survive three years of kill or be killed...

Now we can't all be flying around with super long-range air-to-air missiles; that wouldn't be much of a game. So with that in mind, you have to equip your aircraft using both its real physical limits AND a point system. Each aircraft is in a category, limited to a specific quantity of quality points.

* your choices of airframes BY CATEGORY below:

Category IA - Super Flyweights (10 points)
-------------------------------------------------
A-4F Skyhawk
A-10A Thunderbolt II, Northrop YA-9
MiG-17 Fresco, J-5 Fresco

Category IB - Flyweights (15 points)
-------------------------------------------------
A-4SU Super Skyhawk, A-4AR Fightinghawk
F-5E Tiger II
YA-7F Strikefighter
J35J Draken
MiG-19 Farmer, J-6 Farmer, Q-5 Fantan
MiG-21bis Fishbed, F-7 Airguard <----> Super-7, Su-11 Fishpot
Mirage III

Category II - Lightweights (20 points)
-------------------------------------------------
F-20A Tigershark, X-29 FSW
F-8P Crusader
F-104S Starfighter
JAS39A <----> JAS39D Gripen
Lavi
Mirage F1C <----> Mirage F1E
Su-25T Frogfoot <----> Su-25KM Scorpion

Category IIIA Light Middle Weights (30 points)
-------------------------------------------------
XF8U-3 Crusader III
F-16A Fighting Falcon
YF-17 Cobra
F-21A Kfir, Cheetah C/D
F-105D Thunderchief, F-105G Wild Weasel
F-106A Delta Dart
JA37/AJ37 Viggen
MiG-23MLD Flogger, MiG-27K Flogger, MiG-27H Flogger
Mirage F1M-53
Mirage 2000 <----> Mirage 2000-5, Mirage 2000N
Yak-38M Forger

Category IIIB - Middle Weights(40 points)
-------------------------------------------------
AV-8B Harrier II, Harrier GR7A Harrier II
Buccaneer S.2C/D
F-16C/D Block 52 (non Plus), F-16XL, F-16 VISTA, F-2 Agile Falcon
F-CK-1A <----> F-CK-1D Ching-kuo
Jaguar GR3A <----> ACT
J-8I Finback
JH-7 Flounder
EE Lightning F.2A <----> F.6
Rafale F1
Sea Harrier FRS Mk.1 <----> Sea Harrier FRS51
Su-17M4 <----> Su-22M5 Super Fitter

Category IV - Lower Heavy Weights (50 points)
-------------------------------------------------
F-4G Wild Weasel, F-4E Peace Icarus 2000, F-4F ICE Phantom II, YF-4E Kurnass 2000
F/A-18A <----> F/A-18D Hornet
F-111G, EF-111A Raven
J-8IIH Finback
MiG-29M <----> MiG-29SMT Fulcrum
Su-24M <----> Su-24M2 Fencer
Tornado IDS GR1 <----> GR4, Tornado ADV F2A <----> F3
Yak-141

Category V - Light Heavy Weights (75 points)
-------------------------------------------------
CF-105 Arrow
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
MiG-25PDS Foxbat
Su-27M <----> Su-30MKI Super Flanker, Su-34 Fullback

Category VI - Heavy Weights (100 points)
-------------------------------------------------
F-15A Eagle <----> F-15D Eagle, F-15E Strike Eagle
Su-27S <----> Su-30 Flanker

Category VII - Super Heavy Weights (no limit in points)
-------------------------------------------------
F-14A Tomcat <----> F-14D Super Tomcat, F-111B Aardvark
F-15 ACTIVE
MiG-31B <----> MiG-31M Foxhound
Mirage 4000
Sukhoi Su-37 Terminator
Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut

Likewise your missile selection is weighted by value. Take the number of missiles you want to carry by their value. The sum must be below the points allotted within your category. The weight limits of each model and the associated missile weights would take up too much space in this post so I'll leave it to you to fiddle the numbers. Here are the air-to-air missiles allowed:

Aspide / PL-10 = 10-points
Bisnovat R-40 (AA-6 Acrid) = 10-points
Denel A-Darter = 2-points
Denel R-Darter = 10-points
Hughes AIM-4 Falcon (Rb 28) = 2-points
Hughes AIM-26B Falcon (Rb 27) = 8-points
Hughes AIM-132C Phoenix = 20-points
Luoyang PL-2 = 1-point
Matra R550 Magic / PL-7 = 2-points
Matra R550 Magic II = 3-points
Matra Super 530F (Mirage F1-only) = 8-points
Matra Super 530D (Mirage 2000-only) = 10-points
MBDA MICA IR <----> EM = 12-points
Mitsubishi AAM-3 SRAAM = 4-points
Mitsubishi AAM-4 MRAAM = 12-points
Molniya R-60 (AA-8 Aphid) = 2-points
Rafael Python III / PL-8 = 4-points
Rafael Python 4 = 5-points
Raytheon AIM-7F = 8-points
Raytheon AIM-7P = 10-points
Raytheon AIM-9L Sidewinder (Rb 24J) = 3-points
Raytheon AIM-9M Sidewinder = 4-points
Raytheon AIM-120A AMRAAM = 12-points
Raytheon AIM-120B AMRAAM = 20-points
Raytheon AIM-120C6 AMRAAM = 30-points
Shanghai PL-11 = 10-points
Skyflash = 8-points
TC-1 Sky Sword I = 3-points
TC-2 Sky Sword II = 10-points
Vympel K-13 (AA-2 Advanced Atoll) / PL-5 = 2-points
Vympel R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) = 30-points
Vympel R-33 (AA-9 Amos) = 20-points
Vympel R-37 (AA-13 Arrow) = 40-points
Vympel R-73 (AA-11 Archer) = 4-points
Vympel R-77 (AA-12 Adder) = 10-points

You are also allowed to carry electronics, but these are limited to pre-2001 off the shelf capabilities. If it was carried by your aircraft model choice then it is an option. But because these capabilities are largely obscure and highly classified, there will not be need to focus on this capability.

So within the limits I've put up, construct an airplane-missile combination to suit your air supremacy needs. Don't like the aircraft? Come up with something within the pre-2001 time-frame that was at least available in prototype form. No chalkboard imaginary airframes, please. There are more than likely options out there I missed. Cut loose with your ideas. Most of all have fun!

F-16.net Sponsor

Sounds fun, but DAMN....how much time do have on your hands!!?

I just watched my Area 88 DVDs again last week too...

For those not in the know, Area 88 is an Anime series that was originally Manga(comic book form, sort of). It also spawned an Arcade video game called UN Squadron.

The DVDs are pretty good, 12 episodes on 4 discs. While not totally accurate with weapons loading and placement, they did a lot better than most of Hollywoods efforts!

I'd like to have a Thud, but it's not going to do very well in a modern kill-or-be-killed scenario (I assume you meant air superiority?) regardless of upgrades.

Umm, how about an X-29 (20 points) with one AMRAAM-A (12 points) and two Sidewinder-Ms (8 points)? It probably won't be that effective with that load-out. Maybe I can hope to bring my bogey in WVR if my AMRAAM misses and use my high-alpha performance to my advantage?

F-15 ACTIVE would probably be an excellent choice.

Mirage 2000N (30p) with 2 aim-9M (8p) and 2 aim 7P (20p).

Updated list to reflect missing options and some suggestions:

Category IA - Super Flyweights (10 points)
-------------------------------------------------
A-4F Skyhawk
A-10A Thunderbolt II
AMX
Hawk 200
IAR-93
MiG-17 Fresco, J-5 Fresco
NAMC J-12 (prototype)
Northrop YA-9 (prototype)
Scaled Composites ARES (prototype)
Skyfox (prototype)
T-38 Talon

Category IB - Flyweights (15 points)
-------------------------------------------------
A-4SU Super Skyhawk, A-4AR Fightinghawk
Azarakhsh
F-5E Tiger II
YA-7F Strikefighter
J35J Draken
MiG-19 Farmer, J-6 Farmer, Q-5 Fantan
MiG-21bis Fishbed, F-7 Airguard <----> Super-7 (prototypes)
Mirage III
Su-11 Fishpot

Category II - Lightweights (20 points)
-------------------------------------------------
F-20A Tigershark (prototype)
F-8P Crusader
F-104S Starfighter
JAS39A <----> JAS39D Gripen
Lavi (prototype)
Mirage F1C <----> Mirage F1E
Mitsubishi F-1, T-2
Su-25T Frogfoot <----> Su-25KM Scorpion
X-29 Saber Bat FSW (prototype)

Category IIIA Light Middle Weights (30 points)
-------------------------------------------------
EAP (prototype)
XF8U-3 Crusader III (prototype)
F-16A Fighting Falcon
YF-17 Cobra (prototype)
F-21A Kfir, Cheetah C/D
F-105D Thunderchief, F-105G Wild Weasel
F-106A/B Delta Dart
F-117A Nighthawk
JA37/AJ37 Viggen
Jaguar GR3A
J-8I Finback
J-10 Vigorous Dragon (prototype)
MiG-23MLD Flogger, MiG-27K Flogger, MiG-27H Flogger
Mirage F1M-53 (prototype)
Mirage 2000 <----> Mirage 2000-5, Mirage 2000N
Rafale A (prototype)
Yak-38M Forger

Category IIIB - Middle Weights(40 points)
-------------------------------------------------
AV-8B Harrier II, Harrier GR7A Harrier II
Buccaneer S.2C/D
F-4G Wild Weasel
F-16C/D Block 52 (non Plus), F-2 Agile Falcon
F-16XL, F-16 VISTA (prototypes)
F-CK-1A <----> F-CK-1D Ching-kuo
Jaguar ACT (prototype)
JH-7 Flounder
J-8IIH Finback
EE Lightning F.2A <----> F.6
Rafale F1
Sea Harrier FRS Mk.1 <----> Sea Harrier FRS51
Su-15TM Flagon
Su-17M4 <----> Su-22M5 Super Fitter

Category IV - Lower Heavy Weights (50 points)
-------------------------------------------------
F-4E Peace Icarus 2000, F-4F ICE Phantom II
F/A-18A <----> F/A-18D Hornet
F-111G, EF-111A Raven
MiG-29M <----> MiG-29SMT Fulcrum
Su-24M <----> Su-24M2 Fencer
Tornado IDS GR1 <----> GR4, Tornado ADV F2A <----> F3
X-32, X-35 (prototypes)
Yak-141 (prototype)

Category V - Light Heavy Weights (75 points)
-------------------------------------------------
CF-105 Arrow (prototype)
YF-4E Kurnass 2000 (prototype)
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
MiG-25PDS Foxbat
Su-27M <----> Su-30MKI Super Flanker, Su-34 Fullback

Category VI - Heavy Weights (100 points)
-------------------------------------------------
F-14A Tomcat
F-15A Eagle <----> F-15D Eagle
MiG-31B Foxhound
Mirage 4000 (prototype)
Su-27S <----> Su-30 Flanker

Category VII - Super Heavy Weights (no limit in points)
-------------------------------------------------
YF-12C Black Bird (prototype)
F-14D Super Tomcat
F-15 ACTIVE (prototype)
F-15E Strike Eagle
YF-22 ATF (prototype)
YF-23A Black Widow II (prototype)
F-111B Aardvark (prototype)
MiG-31M Foxhound (prototype)
Sukhoi Su-37 Terminator
Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut

Going by the DVDs, the Thud would have been pretty effective early on during the war. Most of the opposition was MiG-17 variants, with MiG-21s and MiG-23s showing up later. Ground defenses were not so easy though. The contemporary aircraft were the A-4 and F-4 for the most part. The main characters had the different airframes- F-8, F-14, FRS-1, F-1C, Buccaneer, F-5E. Weapons loads varied with missions of course.

Me? I would go with the latest Shin Kazama ride, the F-20. he used it in the U.N. squadron arcade game and they made a model of it as well. however, the weapons loadout would be as follows:

F-20 Tigershark
2x AIM-9M Sidewinder(8 points)
4x AIM-9L Sidewinders(12 points)
1x 330 Gallon Drop Tank

No fancy paintjobs though, I would use the Desert Viper Aggressor color scheme. Cool

Then again, the Greg Gates A-10 would be the most survivable, painted in the JAWS desert camo scheme. Definitely my alternate choice. Twisted Evil

Updated missile list:

Rafael Python III = 4-points (IR)
Rafael Python 4 = 5-points (IR)
Rafael Derby = 8-points (AR)

Denel V3 Kukri = 1-point (IR)
Denel Darter = 2-points (IR)
Denel U-Darter = 3-points (IR)
Denel A-Darter = 4-points (IR)
Denel R-Darter = 10-points (AR)

Red Top = 3-points (IR)
Skyflash = 8-points (SAR)
Active Skyflash = 10-points (AR)
Aspide Mk1 = 8-points (SAR)
Aspide Mk2 = 10-points (AR)

Matra R550 Magic = 2-points (IR)
Matra R550 Magic II = 3-points (IR)
Matra Super 530F (Mirage F1-only) = 8-points (SAR)
Matra Super 530D (Mirage 2000-only) = 10-points (SAR)
MBDA MICA IR = 10-points (IR)
MBDA MICA EM = 12-points (AR)

Rb24 Sidewinder = 2-points (AIM-9B; IR)
Rb24J Sidewinder = 3-points (AIM-9L; IR)
Rb 27 Falcon = 8-points (AIM-26B; SAR)
Rb 28 Falcon = 2-points (AIM-4C; IR)

Hughes AIM-4F = 3-points (IR)
Hughes AIM-4G = 4-points (SAR)
Raytheon AIM-7F = 8-points (SAR)
Raytheon AIM-7P = 10-points (SAR)
Raytheon AIM-9J Sidewinder = 2-points (IR)
Raytheon AIM-9L Sidewinder = 3-points (IR)
Raytheon AIM-9M Sidewinder = 4-points (IR)
FIM-92 Stinger = 1-point (IR)
Raytheon AIM-120A AMRAAM = 12-points (AR)
Raytheon AIM-120B AMRAAM = 20-points (AR)
Raytheon AIM-120C6 AMRAAM = 30-points (AR)
Hughes AIM-54C Phoenix = 30-points (SAR <----> AR)

Luoyang PL-2 = 1-point (AA-2 Atoll-A; IR)
Luoyang PL-3 = 2-points (AA-2 Advanced Atoll-C; IR)
Luoyang PL-4 = 3-points (AA-2 Advanced Atoll-D; SAR)
Luoyang PL-5B = 2-points (IR)
Luoyang PL-5C = 3-points (IR)
Luoyang PL-5E = 4-points (IR)
Xi'an PL-8 = 4-points (Python III; IR)
Luoyang PL-9C = 5-points (IR)
PL-11 = 10-points (Aspide Mk1; SAR)
Shanghai PL-11 = 10-points (SAR)
QW-1 Vanguard = 1-point (IR)
HJ-10 Red Arrow = 1-point (SAL)

Mitsubishi AAM-1 = 2-points (AIM-9E; IR)
Mitsubishi AAM-3 SRAAM = 4-points (IR)
Mitsubishi AAM-4 MRAAM = 12-points (AR)

TC-1 Sky Sword I = 3-points (IR)
TC-2 Sky Sword II = 10-points (AR)

Fatter = 2-points (AIM-9B; IR)
Sedjil = 10-points (MIM-23; SAR)

Vympel K-13A (AA-2 Atoll-A) = 2-points (IR)
Vympel K-13R (AA-2 Atoll-B) = 3-points (SAR)
Vympel K-13R (AA-2 Advanced Atoll-C) = 4-points (SAR)
Vympel K-13M (AA-2 Advanced Atoll-D) = 3-points (IR)
Kaliningrad R-98TM (AA-3 Anab) = 10-points (IR)
Kaliningrad R-98RM (AA-3 Anab) = 12-points (SAR)
Bisnovat R-4TM (AA-5 Ash) = 8-points (IR)
Bisnovat R-4RM (AA-5 Ash) = 10-points (SAR)
Bisnovat R-40TD (AA-6 Acrid) = 15-points (IR)
Bisnovat R-40RD (AA-6 Acrid) = 20-points (SAR)
Vympel R-24T (AA-7 Apex) = 12-points (IR)
Vympel R-24R (AA-7 Apex) = 15-points (SAR)
Molniya R-60 (AA-8 Aphid) = 2-points (IR)
Vympel R-33 (AA-9 Amos) = 20-points (SAR <----> AR)
Vympel R-27R (AA-10 Alamo-A) = 20-points (SAR)
Vympel R-27T (AA-10 Alamo-B) = 20-points (IR)
Vympel R-27RE (AA-10 Alamo-C) = 20-points (SAR)
Vympel R-27TE (AA-10 Alamo-D) = 20-points (IR)
Vympel R-27AE (AA-10 Alamo) = 20-points (AR)
Vympel R-27ME (AA-10 Alamo) = 30-points (SAR)
Vympel R-73 (AA-11 Archer) = 4-points (IR)
Vympel R-73E (AA-11 Archer) = 5-points (IR)
Vympel R-73M (AA-11 Archer) = 6-points (IR)
Vympel R-77 (AA-12 Adder) = 12-points (AR)
Vympel R-77M (AA-12 Adder) = 20-points (AR)
Vympel R-37 (AA-13 Arrow) = 40-points (AR)

Hope it makes more sense now. I tried to keep it all pre-2001, so if you see anything wrong in the list LMK!!!

Quote:

Going by the DVDs, the Thud would have been pretty effective early on during the war. Most of the opposition was MiG-17 variants, with MiG-21s and MiG-23s showing up later. Ground defenses were not so easy though. The contemporary aircraft were the A-4 and F-4 for the most part. The main characters had the different airframes- F-8, F-14, FRS-1, F-1C, Buccaneer, F-5E. Weapons loads varied with missions of course.

Hmm, well if the rules of this were a big more lenient, I'd like to take the F-105 and give it some nice big upgrades to make a Super Thud:

-Beef up the structure to withstand a load factor of 9 Gs.
-Increase the wing area to reduce the wing loading.
-Add a small strake along the outside of the inlet cowl just ahead of the wing for better high alpha lift.
-Increase the stabilator area for enhanced pitch authority.
-Slightly modify the inlet geometry for better high alpha airflow (make the upper lip of the cowl hang forward relative to the lower lip).
-Modify the internal bomb bay to allow for carriage of a couple of AMRAAMS or AIM-9X (if it's big enough, that is).
-Switch the engine from the J75-P-19W (26,500 pounds of thrust) to the F100-PW-229 (29,000 pounds of thrust) with 3D TVC as seen on the F-15 ACTIVE. Those two engines are of similar size, right? Or better: I think I once saw TEG say that some F100 (or was it F110?) had been beefed up to 37,000 pounds of thrust. If so, I'll stick a vectoring nozzle on that and put it in my Thud.
-Replace some of the metal components with composites.
-Equip it with JHMCS.
-Put an AESA in the nose, perhaps the AN/APG-62(V)3 (if it will fit).
-Modify the radome to have moderate chining.
-Paint it with RAM.
-Align the sweeps of the wings, stabilators and vertical tail.
-Put an EOTS under the nose for good measure.

I'm sure this is all too much to ask for, but I can dream, can't I? Wink

Would it look something like this?
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item341466.html
Smile

fisk

fiskerwad wrote:

Would it look something like this?
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item341466.html
Smile

fisk

Heh heh. I actually remember Carlo Kopp likening the F-35 to the F-105.

HEY!!!

Enough of this!!! Knock it off!! Y'all need to keep it real and get your heads out of fantasy land!!!!

Laughing

Kryptid, I love your line of thinking! Cool

Lately I've been dreaming of a comeback tactical airframe made by the fine stable of Republic...

I would call it the ThunderHorse. Twisted Evil

And as TEG would agree, it would DEFINITELY need an engine or two of Pratt & Whitney's newest and finest powering it. Wink

Or possibly 3 or 4 engines if Republic builds it. What was that saying,
"If someone built a runway around the world, Republic would build an airplane that couldn't get off it".
Smile

fisk

That's just plain mean. Confused

Forum: Off-topic

Today, AREA 88 recruits you to fly the <insert here>..