Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

Active Member Joined: Jan 30, 2010 - 08:43 PM Posts: 151

Here you are two upgraded 4th generation fighters present in the Polish AF and Russian AF in the hear future. What do you think? Which is overally better but especially in A2A combat?

To clarify what we are talking about both planes' basic features:

- F-16C Block 52+ - frontal RCS=1.2 sqm, AN/APG-68V(9) radar, Sniper-XR targeting pod, AIDEWS defense suite, JHCMS, conformal fuel tanks, F-100-PW-229 engine, armament: AIM-120C-5, AIM-9X, JDAM, JSOW-C, AGM-65G2, GBU-10/12/27.

- Su-35 - frontal RCS=3-20 sqm (some RCS reduction possible), Irbis-E radar, OLS-35 TV/IRST sight, Damocles/Sapsan targeting pod, L175M Khibiny-M defense suite, 117S engines, armament: R-77, various R-27 types, R-73M/74, Kh-25/29/31/59MK, Russian LGBs.

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Last edited by Scorpion82 on Mar 15, 2010 - 12:41 PM; edited 1 time in total

I don't think that these two types compare to well. The F-16 was the USAFs low part of the 4th gen mix, while the Su-27 was the high part of the soviet 4th gen mix.
The Su-35 is very likely a more capable fighter with its powerful radar and other sensors and likely superior performance in most areas. With JHMCS+AIM-9X the Viper shouldn't fare bad in dogfighting situations and the AIM-120C-5 might indeed offer some advantages over the R-77, the question in which state are all those AAMs proposed by the Russians since so many years. In the strike role the F-16 is likely to benefit from a broad range of more advanced PGMs and better TGP, the Flanker scores in terms of payload and range and can employ some weapons not available to the F-16 such as supersonic capable ASMs and stand-off missiles.

Active Member Joined: Jan 30, 2010 - 08:43 PM Posts: 151

So Poles should think about SABR radar and AIM-120D missiles in several years. What is pretty certain advanced R-77 variants development were dropped by Russkies and now they possess only basic 20 years old missile comparable to AIM-120A/B. And Sniper-XR can be in air-to-air combat so F-16C would have much better IRST than Flanker-E's OLS-35.

The Russians abandoned the ramjet version R-77PD, but they are working on a new variant dubbed K-77M which uses a double pulse motor (like the AIM-120D). They have also designed a variant dubbed R-77-1 which features a new warhead and seeker, which is reportedly fielded with the RuAF.

RACR and SABR are options offered, but so far no customer has placed an order and the AIM-120D appears not to be in service right now, let alone available to any export customer like Poland.

The Sniper XR offers an AA target tracking/vis ident function, which might not be available to the OLS-35, but I have never seen any sources which suggests that the Sniper can actually search for and track multiple targets simultaneously. It's therefore not really comparable to the OLS-35 which is a true IRST and not an AG TGP with a SST mode against aerial targets requiring cueing by the radar.

is there any fusion between Sniper ATP and the APG radar or the EW systems?
if the radar detects an aerial target,could the the Sniper then track/Id the same target ?

I think LockMart should work on this capability

Active Member Joined: Jan 30, 2010 - 08:43 PM Posts: 151

- Yes but also R-77M seems to be in state of suspension. As for now Russkies have only small numbers of basic R-77 for sure.

- SABR radar is specially designed to be easily retrofitted into older F-16C. I think it will become very successful business strategy and many customers will acquire it. Of course it will take several years but no one must hurry because Su-35 deliveries will be completed in 2016. As for AIM-120D - this missile should enter servive this year and US usually did not block export of previous AMRAAM versions for long. In sum I think F-16C equipped SABR+AIM-120D combo will be enough for Su-35!

- I am not sure Sniper-XR lacks multi-target tracking capability however this may apply only to A2G mode. Nevertheless Sniper-XR detection and tracking ranges are vastly superior to anything OLS-35 can offer. During flight tests Sniper-XR was able to detect airliners taking-off from KLAX at 160 km range, identify B737 from frontal hemisphere at 105 km and detect and identify tanks from 40 km distance! Russian OLS systems have 15-35 km aerial target detection ranges from frontal arcs and 8-15 km tank identification range.

- it is almost certain such data fusion does exists at least between radar and Sniper-XR pod. In fact for long time radar can lock targeting pods on target in PRE mode but this was true only for A2G radar modes because legacy pods did not work in A2A mode like Sniper. Additionally data acquired by Sniper-XR can be relayed to another platforms via secure datalink. As for RWR+radar+Sniper fusion I do not know. Such feature is present in F-22 and F-35 fighters so it is safe to assume similar opinion will be possible for modernized 4th generation fighters if equipped with modern ECM suites like AIDEWS.

According the public data latest OLS versions offer detections ranges up to 50 km against closing and 90 km against fleeing targets in non-AB.
Is there any source which suggests that the Sniper XR offers detection capabilities as well? Never heared about it.

I have seen no indication that the R-77M is cancelled and I doubt it as the Russians are to a certain extend dependent on this new variant for its T-50.

I don't think the AIM-120D or RACR/SABR are of any relevance anytime soon as long as the polish Vipers are concerned.

Is this the same Su-35 that only three* or so airframes exist at the moment and are they flown by the nation** whose pilots only get a few flight hours a month? If it is i think I'd put my money down on the F-16...

*Maybe there's more but you get the point.
** Russia.

Last edited by lichy1987 on Apr 21, 2010 - 06:03 PM; edited 1 time in total

Russian Su-35 can be potentional enemy for our F-16.
How do You think, is this fighters have smaller RCS? I heard from few Russians that they can have even 3m2 of frontal RCS. Can it be true?

Why not. I have read tghat latest Su-35 has composite front andf AESA radar, add in some fan blockerfs and I would believe a possible 3m rcs, but it will still jump when loaded.

If that is true,he is a very good fighter. In case of F-15SE there are infos that he have 1m2. Then perhaps Russian Fighter can have such nice SPO.
But there is still Russian tendency to portray everything what they have only in superlatives. But I'm pessimist and i believe them:)

I posted my previous post from my phone... YIKES the typing is awful.

Scorpion82 wrote:

The Russians abandoned the ramjet version R-77PD, but they are working on a new variant dubbed K-77M which uses a double pulse motor (like the AIM-120D). They have also designed a variant dubbed R-77-1 which features a new warhead and seeker, which is reportedly fielded with the RuAF.

RACR and SABR are options offered, but so far no customer has placed an order and the AIM-120D appears not to be in service right now, let alone available to any export customer like Poland.

The Sniper XR offers an AA target tracking/vis ident function, which might not be available to the OLS-35, but I have never seen any sources which suggests that the Sniper can actually search for and track multiple targets simultaneously. It's therefore not really comparable to the OLS-35 which is a true IRST and not an AG TGP with a SST mode against aerial targets requiring cueing by the radar.

I'd say that's a pretty good post. But is it publicly confirmed that the 120D has dual pulse?

geogen wrote:

But is it publicly confirmed that the 120D has dual pulse?

I would have to look for a link, but that is what's said.

yakuza wrote:

is there any fusion between Sniper ATP and the APG radar or the EW systems?
if the radar detects an aerial target,could the the Sniper then track/Id the same target ?

I think LockMart should work on this capability

I'm pretty certain that capability already exists, as in it works on aircraft inservice right now that carry the Sniper pod. Might try and dig a link up if I find I have the time and motivation.

Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

F-16C Block 52+ vs Su-35