Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

shep1978 wrote:

Well to be honest it might not be as easy to do as it sounds (getting it below Raptor cost) if there is a very limited production run (they've said they're buying 50 or 60 at the moment) and don't forget this is not a simple aircraft, many control surfaces, more than the F-22, inlet blockers that will probably need de-icing built in and of course they could very well have to be variable inlet blockers to allow more air through at certain speeds and AOA. An IRST and 5 radars too. It ain't gonna be cheap that's for sure.
Of course they may not include any advanced AN/ALR-94 type gear (i've heard nothing regarding an equivilent on this bird and I doubt Russia could compete with it anyway) and it may not include a stealthy IR reducing top coat like the F-22 has, nothing so far leads me to think they have such a coating waiting to be put on the production models.

The trouble is whatever they say the cost will be cannot be verified unlike the F-22 so sure they can say it only costs 50 or 60 million and non of us would ever find out the truth.

Nothing is easy in the Aviation game.
You have some fair points on the cost here.
But let me highlight other points for u.
Quite a large part of the Sukhoi R&D program are done in a much sober way vs how LM did with the YF/F-22.
All those test beds Sukhoi are flying around, that beeing Engines, radar, avionics, kenetic performance, stability and last the new FCS whose was first tested on the Su-35BM prototype '901' back in 2008.
Rumour has it the the old Su-47 is also part of the test bed program for Pak-Fa(internal WB).

If u ask me it sounds like Sukhoi is doing a lot of risk reduction and trying to squeeze out most of the alocated funding they got for the whole program.
Now whats wrong in this approach eh?
Not like F-22 and F-35 where they where ordering a large bunch of LIRP units for testing which drive the cost up-up-up, when things go wrong(F-35B,Software).
On top of this the sallaries in Russia is lower, much lower.
The Russian Avionics industrie with all their Sub contractors is somewhat more sentrilized vs the US model.(Reference F-22 got contractors in most of the states AKA not sentrilized).
Nothing is easy like i said, but looking the huge difference in the funding between the F-22/F-35 VS Pak-Fa program, everything is pointing to the Pak-Fa beeing considerable cheaper vs the F-22.

Cheers Wink

F-16.net Sponsor

Oh nothings wrong with the approch the Russians have taken. What I find to be a shame is that they got their 5th gen fighter so very badly wrong the first time over, or actually first times over what with the Mig144 and the Su-47. Just think without messing about on those costly and time wasting mistakes the PAK-FA would already be operational.

One thing I did miss out earlier is factor in that a whole new engine is having to be developed for the PAK-FA too, that will eat up a whole ton of cash but if that cost in R&D and testing will be added to the first batch of aircraft or not is another question.

shep1978 wrote:

Oh nothings wrong with the approch the Russians have taken. What I find to be a shame is that they got their 5th gen fighter so very badly wrong the first time over, or actually first times over what with the Mig144 and the Su-47. Just think without messing about on those costly and time wasting mistakes the PAK-FA would already be operational.

One thing I did miss out earlier is factor in that a whole new engine is having to be developed for the PAK-FA too, that will eat up a whole ton of cash but if that cost in R&D and testing will be added to the first batch of aircraft or not is another question.

We don't know how much funding was beeing spend on the RuAF Pak-Fa program back in the days.
If you have some figure, pls show it?
The Program didn't come very far if you ask me before it was capped due to no more funding.

Those demonstrators aircraft from Sukhoi and Mig do not have so much in comon with the Pak-Fa program we see to day, two different story so why are u bringing it forward?
The Program was halted due to development which everybody here know and that includes u too..
Is this a temp to further cast dirt on Sukhoi as u have no better points do share? Wink

The 2nd stage Engine R&D have allredy been given the funding it need.
It will have to take it course and time.
Funding isn't an issue here, yet. There is enough to go around for all contractors in the Pak-Fa program.
Are u saying Saturn/Soulut will fail or what?
If so that is a pretty bold statement, which i be sure to stick it to you when the engine are flying around on different testbeds and enter service.

cheers

Er, where on earth did I say the engine will fail or even imply that it will fail??

And if you think the time and money spent playing about on the Su-47 and Mig-144/142 was time and money well spent that had no impact on Russia's future 5th gen fighter then I really don't know what to say.
I'm not trying to cast dirt on Sukhoi or Russia either, just merely pointing out that they were wasteful and pretty much pointess programs, unless you think developing a forward swept wing turkey of a plane was a grand idea...

Another thing, doesn't this A/C need to go through a lot more test before anything will happen? and from the date of this post how long has it been flying? Any simulation training, avionic testin, etc Question

Last edited by haavarla on Nov 12, 2010 - 08:26 AM; edited 1 time in total

Quote:

"shep1978"]And if you think the time and money spent playing about on the Su-47 and Mig-144/142 was time and money well spent that had no impact on Russia's future 5th gen fighter then I really don't know what to say.

All i'm saying is there was only one Demonstrator build with Sukhois own funding, the Su-47.
Mig also build one or two demonstrators.
A waste of money, sure.
But as i said, they never got the program going from the very start.
The little funding they got was riddiculas, and all to soon the funding was capped. So what could they do?
But i think Sukhoi atleast could bring some expirience into the restart of the new Pak-Fa program.
I don't think the Su-47 was a prototype of what the RuAF next gen requirements, rather a technologic demonstrator.
An X-aircraft more likely as NASA's X-aircraft etc etc.

Quote:

I'm not trying to cast dirt on Sukhoi or Russia either, just merely pointing out that they were wasteful and pretty much pointess programs, unless you think developing a forward swept wing turkey of a plane was a grand idea...

The Su-47 are a testbed for the internal weapons bay. There are pics showing it has the internal weaponsbay redesigned.
So not a completly waste;)
Its beeing operated out from Zhukovskiy airbase along with all the other testbeds.

velocity264c wrote:

Another thing, doesn't this A/C need to go through a lot more test before anything will happen? and from the date of this post how long has it been flying? Any simulation training, avionic testin, etc Question

Yes thats right.
Thats why there has been two more test pilots assigned to the Pak-Fa test program.

"in September, the program tests the PAK FA joined by two other test pilot of the Sukhoi Design Bureau: Roman Kondratiev (its first flight on an airplane took place on 15 September) and Yuri Vashchuk (20 September). Expansion team of pilots who have mastered flying the new fighter will help increase the pace of trials, which are expected by year's end will be able to join the second flying example of the PAK FA. Until the end of the year and planned to sign the contract with India for the development of SIP (FGFA)."

If they manage to cram out the next prototype before newyear the Pak-Fa program will gain some momentum.

haavarla wrote:

velocity264c wrote:

Another thing, doesn't this A/C need to go through a lot more test before anything will happen? and from the date of this post how long has it been flying? Any simulation training, avionic testin, etc Question

Yes thats right.
Thats why there has been two more test pilots assigned to the Pak-Fa test program.

"in September, the program tests the PAK FA joined by two other test pilot of the Sukhoi Design Bureau: Roman Kondratiev (its first flight on an airplane took place on 15 September) and Yuri Vashchuk (20 September). Expansion team of pilots who have mastered flying the new fighter will help increase the pace of trials, which are expected by year's end will be able to join the second flying example of the PAK FA. Until the end of the year and planned to sign the contract with India for the development of SIP (FGFA)."

If they manage to cram out the next prototype before newyear the Pak-Fa program will gain some momentum.

Thank you for an answer. It helps much.

Last edited by bruant328 on Dec 03, 2010 - 03:39 AM; edited 1 time in total

Deleted. Double post.

Heritage Foundation report on the PAK FA:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Report ... or-America

Deleted.

I've got to ask, and i'm not being funny about this but when does the PAK-FA/ T-50 get its own slot in the '5th gen fighters' forum section. And the J-20 perhaps? I would think it's fair based on what we know to say they are both 5th gen designs and that's surely an exciting thing!

(I'm sure there are a couple of other 5th gen aircraft too out there in the paper stage of their lives, South Korea's project springs to mind)

Can I just ad to anyone who reads this thread from the begining that Peter Goon and APA have never, and will never be idependant advisers to the Australian Department of Defence

Has anyone taken a close look at the PAK-FA's intakes?
There is a gap between the upper edge of the intake and the lower edge of the wing extension. I could be wrong, but isn't that a great big radar reflector?
If so, it's radar cross section may be hard pressed to beat a Supper Hornet, let alone an F-35 (forget about competing with an F-22).

count_to_10 wrote:

Has anyone taken a close look at the PAK-FA's intakes?
There is a gap between the upper edge of the intake and the lower edge of the wing extension. I could be wrong, but isn't that a great big radar reflector?
If so, it's radar cross section may be hard pressed to beat a Supper Hornet, let alone an F-35 (forget about competing with an F-22).

The F-35 has DSI that avoids the gap.

The F-22 does not have DSI but uses sig management techniques to avoid it being a big issue.

The question is: Did the Russians manage the signature there or did they just let it go?

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Overstatement of PAK-FA capabilities?