Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

anytimebaby wrote:

Des wrote:

HaveVoid wrote:

I do not see why everyone seems to think that they are some sort of be all end all panacea for air combat.
"

Just fanboys that have watched too many re-runs of top gun Wink

I'm no fanboy. It's just my favorite plane. that's all. no different the Mustang Fanboys.

Like it or not the Tomcat was one of the best planes if not the best "fighter" plane of the day. In fact I would compare it too the P-51. able to fly long distances, tangle with the best and comeback in one piece

" if not the best fighter in the world"
c'mon man the F-15 can fly long distances,tangle with the best and comeback in one piece and it's undefeated in air combat, racking up over 100 kills. Yet it seems to me the Tomcat that gets all the hype

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edit:

I'll stick with earlier conjecture that the ASF-14 as it was apparently proposed could have been the more effective 'big ticket' investment at the time, and paying off even today enabling greater capability and LO than Supers. Thus, greater deterrence and efficient Naval wing recapitalization planning could have been exploited given the hypothetical F/A-X 5.5 gen entering service by late 20s to augment the N-UCAS and remaining upgraded ASF-14 blocks still plugging away.

My views Salute

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

I thought the AIM-152 (aka AIM-155) was proposed for the supercat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-152_AAAM

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-152.html

http://www.cetin.net.cn/storage/cetin2/ ... aaam-1.htm

Here is a thread about the AIM-152 and it's F-14 integration including mockup photos of both variants.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/i ... pic=2548.0

Quote:

bjr1028
No, its the fact they're slotted for sparrow fins and the AMRAAM isn't an exact fit for the sparrow. They're different than the fuselage stations on the eagle and hornet.

I'm not a pilot or a maintainer but that's my understanding as well.

Quote:

Des
Even if they got them to fit, integrating the AMRAAM into the Tomcats systems is no easy task.
Basically you have to rip the guts out of the avionics, new software has to be written and miles of rewiring. A task thats complicated, time consuming and hideously expensive.

True enough you have to rewrite the software, add more wiring, etc. And like I mentioned the Navy decided those funds would be better spent on making the Tomcat an air to ground platform (if only they had went ahead with Grumman's Quickstrike proposals or other updated Tomcats)!

Pilotasso wrote:

Dont think its the size of the sparrow compared to the AMRAAM that matters.

Hehehe...sound like something a female CC or weapons crew would say.

Des wrote:

c'mon man the F-15 can fly long distances,tangle with the best and comeback in one piece and it's undefeated in air combat, racking up over 100 kills. Yet it seems to me the Tomcat that gets all the hype

That's because they had Top Gun to thank.

The USAF doesn't know how to publicize itself well in movies. Case in point, this:

And all it's countless/painful sequels and spinoffs.

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

That's because they had Top Gun to thank.

The USAF doesn't know how to publicize itself well in movies. Case in point, this:

And all it's countless/painful sequels and spinoffs.

But the USAF was such prudes at the time, not thinking about the public hype, they didn't even allow the filming at USAF bases with USAF equipment.

You'll notice the jets on the posters are void of tails, and the filming was all done with IAF aircraft.

Talk about a major screw up on the USAF's part!?! Doh

Then again, maybe the USAF had read the script?

You can see how the 'public perception' thing has changed in the USAF; look at Transformers II, almost a recruiting commercial for the USAF! Cool

TEG

Des wrote:

anytimebaby wrote:

Des wrote:

HaveVoid wrote:

I do not see why everyone seems to think that they are some sort of be all end all panacea for air combat.
"

Just fanboys that have watched too many re-runs of top gun Wink

I'm no fanboy. It's just my favorite plane. that's all. no different the Mustang Fanboys.

Like it or not the Tomcat was one of the best planes if not the best "fighter" plane of the day. In fact I would compare it too the P-51. able to fly long distances, tangle with the best and comeback in one piece

" if not the best fighter in the world"
c'mon man the F-15 can fly long distances,tangle with the best and comeback in one piece and it's undefeated in air combat, racking up over 100 kills. Yet it seems to me the Tomcat that gets all the hype

I'm not saying the F-15 is a bad plane by any means some of my favorite demos ever have been F-15 demos. I think if you put F-14D's against F-15C's it would come down to pilot experience and training. they are very on par planes imho. Maybe I am a little bit of a fanboy :p:

as for the F-15's combat record I'm not going to dispute that. but I will say that many of those air kills are Israeli not American. and if we count the kills that the F-14 had With under experienced under maintained F-14's it's up in the 100's also.

only 1 American F-14 has been lost in the 30 years it was in service and it was to a SAM not an Air to Air duel

anytimebaby wrote:

Des wrote:

anytimebaby wrote:

Des wrote:

HaveVoid wrote:

I do not see why everyone seems to think that they are some sort of be all end all panacea for air combat.
"

Just fanboys that have watched too many re-runs of top gun Wink

I'm no fanboy. It's just my favorite plane. that's all. no different the Mustang Fanboys.

Like it or not the Tomcat was one of the best planes if not the best "fighter" plane of the day. In fact I would compare it too the P-51. able to fly long distances, tangle with the best and comeback in one piece

" if not the best fighter in the world"
c'mon man the F-15 can fly long distances,tangle with the best and comeback in one piece and it's undefeated in air combat, racking up over 100 kills. Yet it seems to me the Tomcat that gets all the hype

I'm not saying the F-15 is a bad plane by any means some of my favorite demos ever have been F-15 demos. I think if you put F-14D's against F-15C's it would come down to pilot experience and training. they are very on par planes imho. Maybe I am a little bit of a fanboy :p:

as for the F-15's combat record I'm not going to dispute that. but I will say that many of those air kills are Israeli not American. and if we count the kills that the F-14 had With under experienced under maintained F-14's it's up in the 100's also.

only 1 American F-14 has been lost in the 30 years it was in service and it was to a SAM not an Air to Air duel

I guess my history could be a little bit off, but I thought that the F-14 only had around 5 or 6 confirmed kills by American pilots. A pair each of Fitters and Floggers, and a Hip over Iraq in 1991. As far as Iranian kills, I was fairly certain that their kill scores were not verifiable becasue each side covered up their losses as best as possible.

And, no F-15 has been lost in an aerial duel either. (the training accident involving the JASDF Eagle doesn't count)

According to Tom Cooper in his Book "Iranian F-14 Units in Combat" - he has compiled a list of 159 confirmed kills after interviewing many ex F-14 /F-4/F-5 pilots. Whether that's correct - who knows but its fair to say maybe 100+ kills (for maybe 6 losses ).
The Iranian F-14A seems to have done something Israel Failed to do with the F-15A - that was intercept MiG-25Rs thanks to the long range AWG-9/AIM-54 combo.

On your other previous points, the glove vains were deleted in later builds of the F-14 - however just like airbrakes - you need to actually be in a position to see them and take advantage in the first place!

The only actual problem with the F-14A was the underpowered TF30s which compressor stalled at certain levels of AOA and if the pilot was too rough with the throttle - caused a few deaths - but this was rectified with new engines in the B/D

I thought that the ISraelis eventualy did bag a few of the Foxbats using their Eagles, over the Bekaa Valeey maybe?

Yes according to Osprey books - They got a few MiG-25PDs (The Fighter variant) which were engaging the Israelis at a similar altitude - but couldn't get the High flying MiG-25Rs (Thats the recon variant) when they flew over Israel.

The F-15A is credited in a book with a 0.5 kill on a MiG-25R - The Israelis apparently stuck a Hawk site high on a mountain and managed to get a hit on a MiG-25R - which then had to come down to a lower level due to the damage - the F-15A finished it off.

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

That's because they had Top Gun to thank.

The USAF doesn't know how to publicize itself well in movies. Case in point, this:

And all it's countless/painful sequels and spinoffs.

But the USAF was such prudes at the time, not thinking about the public hype, they didn't even allow the filming at USAF bases with USAF equipment.

You'll notice the jets on the posters are void of tails, and the filming was all done with IAF aircraft.

Talk about a major screw up on the USAF's part!?! Doh

Then again, maybe the USAF had read the script?

You can see how the 'public perception' thing has changed in the USAF; look at Transformers II, almost a recruiting commercial for the USAF! Cool

TEG

I remember those days and "prudes" is a good word to describe it back then.

I haven't seen Transformers II yet so I can't judge it. I have seen the 1st Transformers movie and Ironman though because I particularly wanted to see how they incorporated the F-22 in those movies as they hyped it's appearance in the promos. This is my opinion only, but when I saw those scenes, I shook my head. The F-22 scenes were nothing special, basically meaningless and even forgettable.

If the USAF wants an aircraft of it's own to be seen as "iconic" by the masses by way of Hollywood, somebody has to come up with a story (and a good one hopefully like a patriotic one) that can involve and feature a chosen aircraft predominately like Top Gun did. 100% USAF support also a must.

I wish a project like that could have been done a long time ago featuring the F-16 or F-15 because they're superior to the Tomkitty and worthy of icon status. However, to try and do something like that now with the F-22 would be problematic, OPSEC being the big reason.

I only wish the USN had supported the F-14 the way the USAF did the F-15/F-15E.

Quote:

avon1944
I only wish the USN had supported the F-14 the way the USAF did the F-15/F-15E.

I'll second that! Cheers

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 Vs. F-14