Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Wow!!! The issue gets interesting. Now you can imagine; if some "subject matter experts" have been saying constantly that our JSF will be outmatch by operational Sukhois think of all the things they for sure will say about the JSF vs. the T-50. I mean they'll start saying this and that.... I believe its time for LM to unveil more of the F-35 combat advantages to counter all the more negative criticism that for sure the Ligthning II will get when compared with this T-50.

Another thing: It strikes me how the Russians still enphazises super manouverability in their latest desing while some of our aerial combat experts seem to visualize that as a thing of the past.

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Security concerns should override the need to match the chest-thumping of the Russians.

The only thing that the PAK FA will do Re: the F-35 is cause F-35 sales to go up.

Things we need to do:

1. Accelerate JDRADM Dev and procurement

2. Give the F-22 it's AIRST and Cheek Arrays

3. Upgrade our AWACS to AESA based tech.

4. Accelerate solid-state airborne lasers

5. Accelerate UCAV dev

SpudmanWP wrote:

The only thing that the PAK FA will do Re: the F-35 is cause F-35 sales to go up.

Things we need to do:

1. Accelerate JDRADM Dev and procurement

2. Give the F-22 it's AIRST and Cheek Arrays

3. Upgrade our AWACS to AESA based tech.

4. Accelerate solid-state airborne lasers

5. Accelerate UCAV dev

Other than F-22 upgrades which currently do not have adequate funding, do we really need to accelerate any of the rest? IMO the answer is no except UCAV/UAS/what-ever the-hell they're calling 'em now. Even IF they get this thing into serial production by 2015, you're not looking at IOC until 2017 at the earliest and probably not more than a few squadrons by 2022. They may not even match our F-22 numbers until we start flying our next air dominance platform or maybe even SDD testing on it sometime in the late 2020s (hopefully!!). I think it’ll turn out to be a fine jet but not a world beater. The only wild card is export sales other than India

What we need to do is build more SSGN and not let the enemy off the ground in the first place.

Given what we know about the PAKFA:
..a. That the PAK FA will not be built in any significant numbers
..b. The geographical are that it has to cover is HUGE and it's numbers are low
..c. The weapon load is too large for it's sensor's to detect (the Very long range AAMs are overkill for F-22s and F-35s)
..d. Most of the RCS reduction is clearly front sector

From this I conclude, IMHO, that the most significant mission that the PAK FA can perform is AWACS/Tanker/ISR hunter. Here are my thoughts behind my ideas:

1. Accelerate JDRADM Dev and procurement
This is probably the most cost effective of all my ideas. These new missiles can benefit EVERY fighter flying (including our allies). That, and it will likely increase the internal loadout on the F-22 and F-35.

2. Give the F-22 it's AIRST and Cheek Arrays
Given that the AWACS/ISR assets will be in greater danger, the F-22 can act as a "Aerial Quarterback".

3. Upgrade our AWACS to AESA based tech.
AESA based AWACS will be harder to detect (LPI) and can use the power of the HUGE AESA antenna to act as a massive standoff jammer for incoming PAK FAs and inbound AAMs.

4. Accelerate solid-state airborne lasers
To act as a last ditch anti-missile defense for the above AWACS/Tanker/ISR assets.

5. Accelerate UCAV dev
They can act as high endurance CAP for the above assets and can use the JDRADMs to shoot down inbound PAK FAs and AAMs.

The PAK-FA/T-50 is the exact reason why capping the F-22 program at 187 aircraft was such an asinine decision.

The F-22 is still a class above the T-50. It will meet or exceed it in all areas, while still possessing a significant edge in low observables from all aspects. In a war pitting Raptors against the T-50, I would expect the Raptor to be the clear victor.

On the other hand, the gap between our F-35 and the T-50 will not be so great in our favor. Actually, in many important ways, the F-35 will actually be INFERIOR. From purely a performance standpoint, it appears the T-50 will likely be superior in every regard when it comes to kinematics. It'll be much faster, have a much longer range, will carry far more A2A weapons, have a more powerful radar, will be more maneuverable and have a higher ceiling than the F-35. When you couple that with a frontal RCS that may come close to matching that of the F-35, folks, that doesn't bode well for the F-35 in the air to air role.

Obama and Gates made a horrible decision to end Raptor production and force the F-35 down our throats as a substitute. While I am not worried about the Indian Air Force as a threat to us, I am not all that cozy about the Russians. I still don't trust them. But perhaps most worrisome of all, China will likely be the country who ends up deploying a significant number of these. They have the money to do so. And the Russians will sell anything to anybody at any time, to make an extra buck and to finance their own modernization efforts.

The T-50 isn't an F-22. Not by any means. But it doesn't have to be. It only needs to outperform the F-35 in order to become the premier fighter for every force in the world that doesn't possess the F-22. And even we don't possess enough of those unfortunately.

The F-35 will be a fine aircraft if used as it was designed....to primarily be the ground attack aircraft in a force using F-22s for air superiority. But to try to use it interchangeably with the F-22, when it doesn't deliver the performance of this new threat, well, that isn't a very good decision. The only advantage the F-35 might hold over the T-50 is a better RCS. And how much better isn't even sure. But it may be offset by the more powerful radar the T-50 will be provided.

Time to order some more Raptors folks.

Fox1 wrote:

The PAK-FA/T-50 is the exact reason why capping the F-22 program at 187 aircraft was such an asinine decision.

The F-22 is still a class above the T-50. It will meet or exceed it in all areas, while still possessing a significant edge in low observables from all aspects. In a war pitting Raptors against the T-50, I would expect the Raptor to be the clear victor.

On the other hand, the gap between our F-35 and the T-50 will not be so great in our favor. Actually, in many important ways, the F-35 will actually be INFERIOR. From purely a performance standpoint, it appears the T-50 will likely be superior in every regard when it comes to kinematics. It'll be much faster, have a much longer range, will carry far more A2A weapons, have a more powerful radar, will be more maneuverable and have a higher ceiling than the F-35. When you couple that with a frontal RCS that may come close to matching that of the F-35, folks, that doesn't bode well for the F-35 in the air to air role.

Obama and Gates made a horrible decision to end Raptor production and force the F-35 down our throats as a substitute. While I am not worried about the Indian Air Force as a threat to us, I am not all that cozy about the Russians. I still don't trust them. But perhaps most worrisome of all, China will likely be the country who ends up deploying a significant number of these. They have the money to do so. And the Russians will sell anything to anybody at any time, to make an extra buck and to finance their own modernization efforts.

The T-50 isn't an F-22. Not by any means. But it doesn't have to be. It only needs to outperform the F-35 in order to become the premier fighter for every force in the world that doesn't possess the F-22. And even we don't possess enough of those unfortunately.

The F-35 will be a fine aircraft if used as it was designed....to primarily be the ground attack aircraft in a force using F-22s for air superiority. But to try to use it interchangeably with the F-22, when it doesn't deliver the performance of this new threat, well, that isn't a very good decision. The only advantage the F-35 might hold over the T-50 is a better RCS. And how much better isn't even sure. But it may be offset by the more powerful radar the T-50 will be provided.

Time to order some more Raptors folks.

I seen nothing that would make me believe the F-35. Is inferior to the PAK-FA is any respect. As a matter of fact the direct opposite.

Corsair1963 wrote:

Fox1 wrote:

The PAK-FA/T-50 is the exact reason why capping the F-22 program at 187 aircraft was such an asinine decision.

The F-22 is still a class above the T-50. It will meet or exceed it in all areas, while still possessing a significant edge in low observables from all aspects. In a war pitting Raptors against the T-50, I would expect the Raptor to be the clear victor.

On the other hand, the gap between our F-35 and the T-50 will not be so great in our favor. Actually, in many important ways, the F-35 will actually be INFERIOR. From purely a performance standpoint, it appears the T-50 will likely be superior in every regard when it comes to kinematics. It'll be much faster, have a much longer range, will carry far more A2A weapons, have a more powerful radar, will be more maneuverable and have a higher ceiling than the F-35. When you couple that with a frontal RCS that may come close to matching that of the F-35, folks, that doesn't bode well for the F-35 in the air to air role.

Obama and Gates made a horrible decision to end Raptor production and force the F-35 down our throats as a substitute. While I am not worried about the Indian Air Force as a threat to us, I am not all that cozy about the Russians. I still don't trust them. But perhaps most worrisome of all, China will likely be the country who ends up deploying a significant number of these. They have the money to do so. And the Russians will sell anything to anybody at any time, to make an extra buck and to finance their own modernization efforts.

The T-50 isn't an F-22. Not by any means. But it doesn't have to be. It only needs to outperform the F-35 in order to become the premier fighter for every force in the world that doesn't possess the F-22. And even we don't possess enough of those unfortunately.

The F-35 will be a fine aircraft if used as it was designed....to primarily be the ground attack aircraft in a force using F-22s for air superiority. But to try to use it interchangeably with the F-22, when it doesn't deliver the performance of this new threat, well, that isn't a very good decision. The only advantage the F-35 might hold over the T-50 is a better RCS. And how much better isn't even sure. But it may be offset by the more powerful radar the T-50 will be provided.

Time to order some more Raptors folks.

I seen nothing that would make me believe the F-35. Is inferior to the PAK-FA is any respect. As a matter of fact the direct opposite.

Then could you explain just what in fact it is you are seeing? How can it not be inferior when the PAK-FA will hold all the performance advantages (most by a significant margin) and drastically close the LO gap that was really the only thing that gave the F-35 an advantage over the 4.5 generation Su-XX series in the first place?

The F-35 was already lacking in many respects to aircraft like the Su-35. But its superior RCS and sensors made up for the higher performance of the Su-35 and gave the F-35 the advantage. But now what you get with the PAK-FA is an aircraft that retains all the performance advantages of the Su-35, but offers a far smaller RCS that may not be significantly worse than the F-35's. So it doesn't take too much of a genius to figure out that when the Russians stuff their latest radar into the nose of that thing, an AESA radar that will rival that in the F-22 in terms of power and range, that any advantage the F-35 might have had in the BVR realm may now be gone. If you give up that ability to an aircraft that can fly higher, faster and carry more weapons than you do, I am having a hard time seeing where the F-35 has ANY advantages left over the PAK-FA.

Fox1 wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

Fox1 wrote:

The PAK-FA/T-50 is the exact reason why capping the F-22 program at 187 aircraft was such an asinine decision.

The F-22 is still a class above the T-50. It will meet or exceed it in all areas, while still possessing a significant edge in low observables from all aspects. In a war pitting Raptors against the T-50, I would expect the Raptor to be the clear victor.

On the other hand, the gap between our F-35 and the T-50 will not be so great in our favor. Actually, in many important ways, the F-35 will actually be INFERIOR. From purely a performance standpoint, it appears the T-50 will likely be superior in every regard when it comes to kinematics. It'll be much faster, have a much longer range, will carry far more A2A weapons, have a more powerful radar, will be more maneuverable and have a higher ceiling than the F-35. When you couple that with a frontal RCS that may come close to matching that of the F-35, folks, that doesn't bode well for the F-35 in the air to air role.

Obama and Gates made a horrible decision to end Raptor production and force the F-35 down our throats as a substitute. While I am not worried about the Indian Air Force as a threat to us, I am not all that cozy about the Russians. I still don't trust them. But perhaps most worrisome of all, China will likely be the country who ends up deploying a significant number of these. They have the money to do so. And the Russians will sell anything to anybody at any time, to make an extra buck and to finance their own modernization efforts.

The T-50 isn't an F-22. Not by any means. But it doesn't have to be. It only needs to outperform the F-35 in order to become the premier fighter for every force in the world that doesn't possess the F-22. And even we don't possess enough of those unfortunately.

The F-35 will be a fine aircraft if used as it was designed....to primarily be the ground attack aircraft in a force using F-22s for air superiority. But to try to use it interchangeably with the F-22, when it doesn't deliver the performance of this new threat, well, that isn't a very good decision. The only advantage the F-35 might hold over the T-50 is a better RCS. And how much better isn't even sure. But it may be offset by the more powerful radar the T-50 will be provided.

Time to order some more Raptors folks.

I seen nothing that would make me believe the F-35. Is inferior to the PAK-FA is any respect. As a matter of fact the direct opposite.

Then could you explain just what in fact it is you are seeing? How can it not be inferior when the PAK-FA will hold all the performance advantages (most by a significant margin) and drastically close the LO gap that was really the only thing that gave the F-35 an advantage over the 4.5 generation Su-XX series in the first place?

The F-35 was already lacking in many respects to aircraft like the Su-35. But its superior RCS and sensors made up for the higher performance of the Su-35 and gave the F-35 the advantage. But now what you get with the PAK-FA is an aircraft that retains all the performance advantages of the Su-35, but offers a far smaller RCS that may not be significantly worse than the F-35's. So it doesn't take too much of a genius to figure out that when the Russians stuff their latest radar into the nose of that thing, an AESA radar that will rival that in the F-22 in terms of power and range, that any advantage the F-35 might have had in the BVR realm may now be gone. If you give up that ability to an aircraft that can fly higher, faster and carry more weapons than you do, I am having a hard time seeing where the F-35 has ANY advantages left over the PAK-FA.

Sorry, I've seen nothing that supports the Su-35 is better in any respect to the F-35 in flight performance. As a matter of fact we know from open sources that the F-35 equals or nearly matches the F-22 in many respects. Yet, almost no one expects the PAK-FA to equal the Raptor. So, why would I believe the Su-35 or even PAK-FA could better the F-35????

I think you may be interpreting that open source data with a little too much glee. Nothing I have seen in any sources suggest the F-35 is worthy of holding the F-22's jock strap in terms of performance, much less "equals" it. My gosh man. Just look at the numbers. It isn't hard to take a look at the basic characteristics of the F-22 and F-35 and see that there is truly no comparison. In terms of kinematic performance, the F-22 OWNS the F-35 in every regard. It is much faster. It can super cruise. It can fly higher and dictate the terms of an engagement. It has much better thrust/weight ratios. It has a larger wing area and better wing loading. It can sustain turns much better. It has TVC to give it even more agility and better high AOA control. It is simply the overwhelmingly superior performer.

Now, going beyond that, the F-22 also has the more powerful radar and a lower RCS. It can detect the F-35 long before the F-35 can detect it. It also supports a larger A2A weapons load out. As an air superiority fighter, it is miles ahead of the F-35. This isn't even debatable.

When looking at the PAK-FA, unfortunately, it will hold many of those same advantages over the F-35 as the F-22 does. It just won't be to the same degree and it won't have an RCS as good as the Raptor. But it will likely be close enough to put the F-35 and PAK-FA at near parity in BVR engagements. Considering the PAK-FA will carry more A2A weapons, I don't think parity in terms of performance is going to cut it. Yet the F-22 will clearly remain superior to the PAK-FA in most respects of performance, and it's lower RCS than the F-35 will aid it in getting the advantage in BVR engagements.

I don't know when people are going to accept that the F-35 is little more than a budget minded 5th generation airframe that offers 4th generation performance. Yes, it will be a terrific strike aircraft. It has sensors that boggle the mind. But with it's thrust to weight ratio, it's relatively small wing area and 30,000 lb weight, no TVC, and with more drag than the F-22, I can't see how this thing is going to offer performance any better than a 4th generation Hornet. It just isn't going to happen, no matter how much we might wish it to be the case.

The F-35 will make a terrific attack aircraft. I hope we field lots of them. We need it. But it isn't, won't and will never be a substitute for the F-22. We need significant numbers of both aircraft types and we need to use them in complimentary roles, not interchangeable ones. They simply aren't interchangeable platforms. The performance gap is too wide.

And sadly, the performance capabilities of the PAK-FA will also best the F-35 in many regards. The only hope that remains is that the F-35 ends up still being significantly better in the frontal RCS game and that the difference will be enough to allow it to detect and fire at the PAK-FA before it can detect and fire at it. But the PAK-FA looks to have pretty good front aspect stealth and I am not at all confident the F-35 will be significantly superior in this regard to offset the better range of the radar the PAK-FA will field.

That is why we still need more F-22s. There is no question it will remain the superior platform when compared to the PAK-FA. But there are some serious and very legitimate doubts about the F-35 being able to do so. The old "it's made here so it has to be better than that Russian designed piece of crap" argument just doesn't move me very much these days. Not in a day when the Communist system that held back technological development has been gone for 20 years. And not in a day when the Russians have access to advanced western electronics.

Fox1 wrote:

I think you may be interpreting that open source data with a little too much glee. Nothing I have seen in any sources suggest the F-35 is worthy of holding the F-22's jock strap in terms of performance, much less "equals" it. My gosh man. Just look at the numbers. It isn't hard to take a look at the basic characteristics of the F-22 and F-35 and see that there is truly no comparison. In terms of kinematic performance, the F-22 OWNS the F-35 in every regard. It is much faster. It can super cruise. It can fly higher and dictate the terms of an engagement. It has much better thrust/weight ratios. It has a larger wing area and better wing loading. It can sustain turns much better. It has TVC to give it even more agility and better high AOA control. It is simply the overwhelmingly superior performer.

Now, going beyond that, the F-22 also has the more powerful radar and a lower RCS. It can detect the F-35 long before the F-35 can detect it. It also supports a larger A2A weapons load out. As an air superiority fighter, it is miles ahead of the F-35. This isn't even debatable.

When looking at the PAK-FA, unfortunately, it will hold many of those same advantages over the F-35 as the F-22 does. It just won't be to the same degree and it won't have an RCS as good as the Raptor. But it will likely be close enough to put the F-35 and PAK-FA at near parity in BVR engagements. Considering the PAK-FA will carry more A2A weapons, I don't think parity in terms of performance is going to cut it. Yet the F-22 will clearly remain superior to the PAK-FA in most respects of performance, and it's lower RCS than the F-35 will aid it in getting the advantage in BVR engagements.

I don't know when people are going to accept that the F-35 is little more than a budget minded 5th generation airframe that offers 4th generation performance. Yes, it will be a terrific strike aircraft. It has sensors that boggle the mind. But with it's thrust to weight ratio, it's relatively small wing area and 30,000 lb weight, no TVC, and with more drag than the F-22, I can't see how this thing is going to offer performance any better than a 4th generation Hornet. It just isn't going to happen, no matter how much we might wish it to be the case.

The F-35 will make a terrific attack aircraft. I hope we field lots of them. We need it. But it isn't, won't and will never be a substitute for the F-22. We need significant numbers of both aircraft types and we need to use them in complimentary roles, not interchangeable ones. They simply aren't interchangeable platforms. The performance gap is too wide.

And sadly, the performance capabilities of the PAK-FA will also best the F-35 in many regards. The only hope that remains is that the F-35 ends up still being significantly better in the frontal RCS game and that the difference will be enough to allow it to detect and fire at the PAK-FA before it can detect and fire at it. But the PAK-FA looks to have pretty good front aspect stealth and I am not at all confident the F-35 will be significantly superior in this regard to offset the better range of the radar the PAK-FA will field.

That is why we still need more F-22s. There is no question it will remain the superior platform when compared to the PAK-FA. But there are some serious and very legitimate doubts about the F-35 being able to do so. The old "it's made here so it has to be better than that Russian designed piece of crap" argument just doesn't move me very much these days. Not in a day when the Communist system that held back technological development has been gone for 20 years. And not in a day when the Russians have access to advanced western electronics.

Wild speculation on your part. You take one look at the PAK-FA and jump to the conclusion that its the near equal to the F-22 and is superior to the F-35.

While, the PAK-FA has some merit compard to many 4.5 Generations Fighters. It has several short coming. The powerplants (i.e. S-117's) are based on the current Flanker Series engines. Which, are not designed to operate at high mach for extended periods. Like the P & W F-119's that are in the F-22. So, forget the PAK-FA having similar performance to the Raptor at High Altitudes and High Mach. Nor, does it it have nearly the Stealth of the F-22 or F-35. The intakes are a good example of this. As they are straight and not S-Curved to protect the Fan from Massive Radar Reflection. (not good for a Stealth Fighter) Further, its Weapons Bays are not likely to hold more than the much smaller F-35. As the two center bays are very narrow and the side bays are extremely narrow. Which, likely translates into the PAK-FA carrying 6-AAM's. The same as the much smaller F-35 I mite add......... Wink

Corsair1963 wrote:

The powerplants (i.e. S-117's) are based on the current Flanker Series engines. Which, are not designed to operate at high mach for extended periods. Like the P & W F-119's that are in the F-22. So, forget the PAK-FA having similar performance to the Raptor at High Altitudes and High Mach.

S-117 is not the target engine. New, next-gen engine is at the final stage of developement. Clearly - T-50 is desinged to supercruise at high alt, F-35 is not. So, in terms of kinematic performance it should be better than F-35.

Corsair1963 wrote:

Nor, does it it have nearly the Stealth of the F-22 or F-35.

That's true. Lower RCS should be the main advantage of the F-35.

Corsair1963 wrote:

The intakes are a good example of this. As they are straight and not S-Curved to protect the Fan from Massive Radar Reflection.

That's no entirely true.

Quote:

Wild speculation on your part. You take one look at the PAK-FA and jump to the conclusion that its the near equal to the F-22 and is superior to the F-35.

Negative. I am looking beyond merely the pictures of the aircraft and actually looking into the systems and innards that will go into it. The engines the current T-50 is using will not be the engines the production model will have. They will offer major improvements over any Flanker engine currently out there and be in the same class as the F-22's engines. This aircraft is being designed to super cruise and perform well at high altitudes. It won't be as good as the F-22 in that regard. But it will be significantly better than the F-35.

Also, I would suggest reading through all the info on the net about the Tikhomirov NIIP AESA radar. This is not going to be Ivan Sr.'s radar. The IRBIS-E of the Su-35 is a very good radar. This one will be even better. It uses a large dish, bigger even than the F-22's. The large design of this airframe will allow mucho room for T/R modules. So it is certainly within the realm of possibility that this radar will provide detection/tracking ranges similar to that of the F-22's APG-77. If it is just close in terms of performance, it will still offer superior detection/tracking range to that of the smaller, less powerful APG-81 sitting in the nose of the F-35. Larger aircraft benefit greatly in BVR combat because they can accommodate such large and powerful radars. That is why the F-15 has always been superior to the F-16 in the BVR role. Larger fighters simply have more space for bigger, more powerful radars.

Also, when looking at the potential RCS of the T-50, all any of us can really do is guess. There isn't anything out there yet I'd regard as reliable data on this yet. But this much I can say with confidence: it won't be anywhere close to the F-22 in terms of RCS, from any angle, and especially from the rear. But the design does indeed appear stealthy enough to fall somewhere between the 0.1 RCS of the F-18 Super Hornet and the 0.001 RCS of the F-35.

The T-50 doesn't look like it will be capable of posing a significant threat to an aircraft like the F-22, which will meet or exceed it in all performance characteristics and be much better in BVR combat. But for an aircraft like the F-35, it could indeed be a serious threat. This thing will have a radar powerful enough and an RCS small enough to make it much more competitive with the F-35. Combined with the performance advantages it will hold in terms of kinematics, that is certainly enough to cause me some concern. If the F-35 could fly as high and fast as the F-22, I'd be less concerned. But it can't. It is a compromise design. Therefore we need more F-22s in the inventory and the F-35 needs to mainly be used in the air to ground role, rather than being thrust into the role of the F-22 simply because it is cheaper.

calel wrote:

Wow!!! The issue gets interesting. Now you can imagine; if some "subject matter experts" have been saying constantly that our JSF will be outmatch by operational Sukhois think of all the things they for sure will say about the JSF vs. the T-50. I mean they'll start saying this and that.... I believe its time for LM to unveil more of the F-35 combat advantages to counter all the more negative criticism that for sure the Ligthning II will get when compared with this T-50.

Another thing: It strikes me how the Russians still enphazises super manouverability in their latest desing while some of our aerial combat experts seem to visualize that as a thing of the past.

Ah NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! period end !

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

JSF Worst Nightmare