Forum: F-22A Raptor

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

Long time, no see sniper 77. Where have you been?

Everybody can see something and interpret different things. I definitely see more than just a vague or passing resemblance.

Although I agree a stealthy design might look vaguely similar in their design (can also be a result driven by requirements), however, as have been shown in the past, 2 designers, in most cases, usually don't come up with similar shapes to come to the same conclusion.

The PAK FA's shaping is by no accident or them just happens to come to the same conclusion.

Hi Scorpion!! Wow look at you flying high over the bandits at Angels 50! A mod now, congrats! Good choice by the mod team to get you on board Smile

I have been working like a Demon! Been away from home for too long, hotels and even apartments get old, real quick Smile

I have taken in some nice places though.

I am willing to bet that any near term stealth airframe is going to have similarities with the Lightning and Raptor, Lockheed have shown the way, that`s for sure.
Something that looks completely different would be a quantum leap in the field. I have only seen pictures from the frontal aspect of the PAK-FA and it looks very Suhkoi like to me, I will have to take the time to check out the other shots.

It`s good to be back! Thanks for the welcome. Lots of new folk around here, hope your not being too hard on them!!

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snypa777 wrote:

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

Long time, no see sniper 77. Where have you been?

Everybody can see something and interpret different things. I definitely see more than just a vague or passing resemblance.

Although I agree a stealthy design might look vaguely similar in their design (can also be a result driven by requirements), however, as have been shown in the past, 2 designers, in most cases, usually don't come up with similar shapes to come to the same conclusion.

The PAK FA's shaping is by no accident or them just happens to come to the same conclusion.

Hi Scorpion!! Wow look at you flying high over the bandits at Angels 50! A mod now, congrats! Good choice by the mod team to get you on board Smile

I have been working like a Demon! Been away from home for too long, hotels and even apartments get old, real quick Smile

I have taken in some nice places though.

I am willing to bet that any near term stealth airframe is going to have similarities with the Lightning and Raptor, Lockheed have shown the way, that`s for sure.
Something that looks completely different would be a quantum leap in the field. I have only seen pictures from the frontal aspect of the PAK-FA and it looks very Suhkoi like to me, I will have to take the time to check out the other shots.

It`s good to be back! Thanks for the welcome. Lots of new folk around here, hope your not being too hard on them!!

Thanks sniper. Hope you're back to stay, for a while at least (schedule permitting). Always nice to have a good guy back.

I try not to be a dungeon master around here. LOL!

Cheers

Last edited by SpudmanWP on Feb 02, 2010 - 07:10 AM; edited 2 times in total

aw2007 wrote:

Wonder if the Pak Fa will have an electronic surveillance system as advanced and as capable as the ALR-94. I have no doubt its AESA radar will be on par with the APG-77, as least in terms of detection range. One thing I'm not so sure is if it will have the LPI capability to make detection stealthy, or it will be as versatile as the APG-77 in the area of EA.....

If there is one area where the Russians irrefutably lag behind the US, it's electronics.

To think that the PAK FA will have an equivalent of the worlds best fighter radar, when they have almost no field experience with AESA radars, is ludicrous.

I'm curious how far along in development the T-50 is. Somehow, I have a hard time believing this thing could achieve IOC status in 5 years as Putin seems to think. Maybe 8-10 years may be more realistic and that's barring some major snafu. I'm sure the Russians and the Indians would want to shorten the waiting time as much as possible but rushing things can lead to nasty surprises later on.

If history serves as any indication, both the Mig-29 and Su-27, particularly the latter, were rushed into service being half-completed aircraft. Both had major problems in the beginning of their respective service lives. It was not until the later iterations that the Ruskies finally got it right, and by then the SU had collapsed. If the PAK FA does make it into service in 2015, which is highly doubtful, it will probably have ballast for a radar and ceiling fans for engines. In all likelihood, it will not be until late in the decade or the early 20s when we finally see a more-or-less definitive PAK FA.

P.S. - Everyone here is overestimating the PAK FA in two significant ways, among others. First of all, it is not as large as it looks. It is actually rather smaller than the Flanker. Secondly, the weapons bays are not nearly as large as everyone here seems to think they are. There are two in tandem, but far narrower than those of the F-22. At most, it will carry 2+2 AAMs, unless they are very deep and the missiles are stacked, an arrangement not adopted in the F-22 because if your lower two AAMs don't fire for whatever reason, the two stacked above are useless. So, chill out everyone - the PAK FA WILL NOT be bristling with missiles in an LO configuration. Notice I did not write "VLO"; the PAK FA is NOT a VLO design by any stretch of the imagination.

Nevertheless, if and when they get its AESA to work - which I don't expect will happen until very late in the decade - you can bet top dollar that the Tiffy and Rafale will be toast. The PAK FA does not represent too grave a challenge for the F-22; however, the Tiffy and Rafale will, unless taking part in a system of systems type scenario, be utterly decimated by PAK FA. If, say, NATO ever goes up against a PAK FA-armed foe in say, 10 years, a familiar scenario will ensue, as in the first Gulf War: the F-22 will provide top cover, the F-35, if it ever flies, will do strike (aided and abetted, perhaps, by N-UCAS), and the Rafale and Tiffy will be relegated to flying goalkeeper CAP sorties over friendly territory. The Europeans keep producing perfectly lovely designs a decade or two late, ensuring they are relegated to total irrelevance until such time as IADS and enemy fighter cover are destroyed.

aw2007 wrote:

Wonder if the Pak Fa will have an electronic surveillance system as advanced and as capable as the ALR-94. I have no doubt its AESA radar will be on par with the APG-77, as least in terms of detection range. One thing I'm not so sure is if it will have the LPI capability to make detection stealthy, or it will be as versatile as the APG-77 in the area of EA.....

Not yet..... the development timeline is going to be a LONG one. The prototype doesn`t have any RAM coatings or bonded composites from the pictures I can see. I am seeing rivets and screws. No production engines or radar, fake weapons bays painted on the fuselage, etc etc..

I think they just wanted to prove the airworthiness of the planform.
It DOES fly, everything else is going to be a long haul. I think it is 5-10 years away from being a contender. Even then it will be a Buick of stealth, not a caddy. Not if they want to build them at a reasonable cost and sell them.

As for electronics, if India field them, they won`t be fitting them with Russian kit. The Israeli`s and the French will take care of them Smile

Scorpion, I will be around , back home working now so I have some leisure time Smile

calel wrote:

Well, here it is; some people thought the day will never come. The T-50!!! Others thought that our F-22 wouldnt have a real modern adversary, soon... Men, we cant underestimate the Russians! Ok I know, its just to early to assume anything, but a fact its out there: a russian 5th gen. fighter flew yesterday. Another interesting fact; India is willing to help in the production of this jet; so I hope our goverment takes yesterday flight as what it is: the posibility that the russians take the T-50 to the production line and start selling it to rogue states, to our enemys, and to those who until now havent dare to declare themselves as our enemies......

The thing to bear in mind is that the USAF/USN/USMC will have 187 F-22s and several hundred F-35s by the time the T-50 reaches FOC. Would it be nice to have 243 or 381 F-22s? Absolutely, but it's not the end of the world just yet.

sextusempiricus,

Shouldn't we HOPE that everyone severely overestimates this new T-50 in every way possible? Think of the benefits of doing so!

I think right now it would be a good time to store the F-22 tooling and retain as much of the workforce in LM as we can. And make damn sure the Air Force F-35 can fly with the best of them. That's our best bet right now, full speed ahead with the F-35. If we realize the situation is grave (say, Russia manages IOC by 2015, and starts building them by the boatload) we can restart F-22 production with improved materials/processes/tech. Yes, it will cost a fortune to restart production, but I'm not sure it's gonna cost a fortune to retain the tooling as insurance.

And anyways, I don't think the Russians or/and the Indians can make the worst case scenario happen. At all. We might see about 100 of these birds, total. Stealth isn't easy or cheap.

Now, let me get off my high horse and tell you what I think about the actual subject aka the T-50 prototype stealth fighter:

I was thinking about this for a bit and I came to this conclusion: the PAK FA itself will not be the greatest danger to us (or indeed, the world). What comes after is. See, the Russians and the Indians will probably take five to ten years to bring the plane into operational capability. By that time, fifth gen won't be so nice and shiny anymore, and certain other countries (ourselves included, probably) will be designing next-gen fighters. Russia and India will face this conondrum: they entered the game so late that by then it makes more sense to put more resources into the next-gen designs. So this will be, to them, sort of like a starter marriage: now they know how stealth works, what it does to your maintenance and availability rates, and such. They get valuable experience operating a stealth (or at least, proto-stealth) aircraft. They will probably realize this and cut the number of planes they buy, while selling as many as they can to finance their next-gen projects. So they might not have a whole lot, maybe 100 planes each (India and Russia), plus the others they sell which will be spread out in small numbers because of cost. Here's the problem.

We are going to sell the F-35 to our allies. They are probably going to try to sell the PAK FA to their allies. We have a saying where I live, if you don't want anybody to know a secret about you, don't tell anybody. What we're going to be seeing is the proliferation of stealth aircraft. This is not like nuclear proliferation; you can't destroy a city with one stealth fighter. But that isn't the real issue, the real issue is alot of people are going to get an up close look at a stealth platform. They're going to know how to operate it. And their engineers are going to study them until they understand how stealth works. And the countries that can afford to will have their stealth programs advanced by years simply by studying one of these stealth fighters. And unless radar makes a comeback and starts detecting stealth aircraft (or our stealth remains so much better than everybody else's), the playing field will be more level. This has potentially serious consequences: say if a country wants to take out something in another country, it can do that with almost complete impunity if it has stealth. We use it judiciously but can we rely on other countries to do so as well? Can we rely on North Korea to use a stealth fleet judiciously?

We don't have enough Raptors to cover FOB's from stealth attack. There will be too many gaps because of shorter detection ranges and not enough aircraft to cover the gaps. We might yet go back to the old days of visual dogfighting unless radar or another new technology emerges to detect stealth aircraft better.

Granted, this is NOT a 2015 or 2020 scenario: I'm talking 2030 at the earliest. By which time, I'm confident, we'll come up with something to give us the clear advantage. But it's worth thinking about how something today may affect tomorrow, so one can plan proactively, instead of just reacting to the actual threat.

OK, so you can't buy more raptors.. I can understand it.
But then the imperative is upgrade it.

First: If there are just 187 F-22 maybe it's possible to make them carryng more than 2 aim9x and six 120D maximizing their combat persistence. The key is develope canted/blended wings weapons or, better again, tube-launced.

Second: If the enemy became stealth too (even if not like you), be ready to dogfigt again: So improve the engines, the speed and the maneuverability, evolve to the DAS and HMD.

Third: IRCM

Fourth: directed energy weapon.

Can't belive there is not room for DAS AIRST and DIRC, the raptor is bigger than the F-35 and potentially have more energy from the TWO engineS.

By now, at least the first point is the real priority (even for the F-35).
If a Raptor can shoot unseen at six(height?) Rafales why not make it able to shot more ??? This is the real waste of money: being still able to first look and first shoot but having to turn back because your bay is just empty !

Okay, just to clear up some things. Plenty of physical room for growth in the F-22. Space is available for cheek AESA arrays as well as IRST. That space is currently empty. From what I understand, the missile warning apertures in the F-22 can be modified in the future to give it an F-35-like DAS. As in the F-35, it provides 360-degree coverage.

Secondly, the F-22 will not be fighting alone. Whether it's backed by F-15s or F-35s, once it has expended its missile load, it can act as a sort of mini-AWACS. Less stealthy aircraft can stand off and launch AMRAAMs at any remaining targets the F-22s haven't already destroyed, guided by the Raptors. It is inconceivable to imagine a scenario wherein a combined force of F-22s and F-35s could not utterly obliterate any potential foe, even one equipped with PAK FAs.

Once again, almost everyone here seems to have no concept of networked warfare, of battlespace awareness and a system of systems approach to air dominance. If all the US had to count on was 187 F-22s, yeah, I'd be worried too. But that is far from being the case. You are all failing to see the big picture...

We will have to maintain the heck out of alot of tired F-15's/F-16's to enable them to take part in operations after the mid-2010's. Doable? Yes. It's just going to make things harder for us.

My point is that situational awareness of the kind the F-35 promises to give us will be essential once the "stealth wall" gets broken down by the first enemy stealth aircraft. You no longer have the luxury of detecting a bogey 50 miles out. It's going to be 15-20 miles. Things tend to move fast when each of you is going 400 kts+.

sextusempiricus wrote:

Secondly, the F-22 will not be fighting alone. Whether it's backed by F-15s or F-35s, once it has expended its missile load, it can act as a sort of mini-AWACS. Less stealthy aircraft can stand off and launch AMRAAMs at any remaining targets the F-22s haven't already destroyed, guided by the Raptors. It is inconceivable to imagine a scenario wherein a combined force of F-22s and F-35s could not utterly obliterate any potential foe, even one equipped with PAK FAs.

If we talk about f-35 playng the missile-truck role, maybe i can belive it, but in the case the truck was an F-15, why the enemy wouldn't fire their shots against it???

A missile-truck role need a very long range (and possibly fast) weapon to be an effective force-multiplier. Is the same concept of ground artillery.

There are a few reasons why the F-35 would make a better missile truck than the F-15.

1. More missiles: The F-35 can carry 12 AMRAAMs and 2 Aim-9x. After Block5 this goes to 14 AMRAAMs.

2. Higher Pk: Because of the VLO airframe, the F-35 can get closer to the target before releasing the AMRAAMs.

3. More survivable: Reduced RCS and active defenses (both EW and IR) will ensure the F-35 lasts longer than the F-15.

4. Better Comms: The F-35 has MADL as does the F-22 so they can communicate directly.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Russian Stealth Fighter and premature shutdown of F-22