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discofishing
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Posted: Apr 11, 2010 - 04:47 AM
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Elite 1K

Joined: Nov 07, 2008 - 10:15 PM
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I concur, and wire chaffing will always be an issue!
Units go through EO, sexual harassment, and alcohol/drug awareness briefings probably at least a couple of times a year. They should add a "wire harness awareness" briefing somewhere in there. I always had a hard time with people saying, "it's only a wire." Only a wire can cost the American tax payers millions of dollars when it shorts out intermittently. It's funny how those shorts will make some techs replace expensive boxes and components when a 50 cent splice kit would solve the problem. |
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Sponsor
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Posted: May 23, 2013 - 9:42 PM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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Raptor_DCTR
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Posted: Apr 11, 2010 - 05:35 AM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: May 23, 2005 - 03:13 AM
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discofishing wrote:
Quote:
I concur, and wire chaffing will always be an issue!
Units go through EO, sexual harassment, and alcohol/drug awareness briefings probably at least a couple of times a year. They should add a "wire harness awareness" briefing somewhere in there. I always had a hard time with people saying, "it's only a wire." Only a wire can cost the American tax payers millions of dollars when it shorts out intermittently. It's funny how those shorts will make some techs replace expensive boxes and components when a 50 cent splice kit would solve the problem.
They do. We go through wire repair FTDs. Although not an annual requirement, maybe it should be. |
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beepa
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Posted: Apr 11, 2010 - 07:45 AM
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Active Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2007 - 10:36 PM
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| Damn...I'm just an industrial electrician, but my heart goes out to the guy...intermittant faults are a pain in the rear....but if it wasn't for faults like these type of challenges then you might as well work in an office....At least put his name on it.... |
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Raptor_DCTR
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Posted: Apr 11, 2010 - 04:42 PM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: May 23, 2005 - 03:13 AM
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| Just remebered chaffing awareness during annual MX-O training. So there is a program in place, problem is most people don't care |
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discofishing
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Posted: Apr 12, 2010 - 04:47 AM
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Elite 1K

Joined: Nov 07, 2008 - 10:15 PM
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Just remebered chaffing awareness during annual MX-O training. So there is a program in place, problem is most people don't care
I've seen some instances where it would've been less expensive and require less maintenance hours if an aircraft made a hard landing than to play the troubleshooting game with a intermittent wire short/open. Wires are always overlooked and their associated problems underrated. Even engineers seem to forget basic wire stuff. When they installed the AAR-57 CMWS in Apaches, engineers forgot to add a simple drip loop to the bulkhead disconnects, so water started collecting in the connectors. Every time it rained in Iraq (which isn't much), several aircraft had all kinds of CMWS faults. To make matters worse, even in the desert the crew chiefs had to do a fresh water rinse every 14 days. The Army's fix was to have the troops splice in extra wire segments. It would not have been a big deal, but just about all the wires were shielded. I'm sure a lot of you guys know, shielded wire is a pain to splice. If it was 6ft from termination point to termination point I would just run new wire. Shield splice kits are just too precious a commodity to just throw around. |
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Raptor_DCTR
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Posted: Apr 12, 2010 - 05:33 AM
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Joined: May 23, 2005 - 03:13 AM
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discofishing wrote:
I've seen some instances where it would've been less expensive and require less maintenance hours if an aircraft made a hard landing than to play the troubleshooting game with a intermittent wire short/open. Wires are always overlooked and their associated problems underrated. Even engineers seem to forget basic wire stuff. When they installed the AAR-57 CMWS in Apaches, engineers forgot to add a simple drip loop to the bulkhead disconnects, so water started collecting in the connectors. Every time it rained in Iraq (which isn't much), several aircraft had all kinds of CMWS faults. To make matters worse, even in the desert the crew chiefs had to do a fresh water rinse every 14 days. The Army's fix was to have the troops splice in extra wire segments. It would not have been a big deal, but just about all the wires were shielded. I'm sure a lot of you guys know, shielded wire is a pain to splice. If it was 6ft from termination point to termination point I would just run new wire. Shield splice kits are just too precious a commodity to just throw around.
Army maintenance sounds a lot different than AF. We take wiring issues pretty seriously. Aircraft are rutinely removed from flight status if wires are even suspected. Engineers can't think of everything and make mistakes just like everyone else. This is part of the reason we have TCTOs. In the case of the drip loop you're talking about, it was probably more cost effective to splice the wires than to run a whole new harness that probably spidered all over the aircraft. Shielded harnesses can be a pain in the a$$ in tight spaces, but I don't think they are all that hard if you have room. Also that is one of those uncommon wiring jobs that a lot of specs have never done, or haven't done in a long time. It's all about passing on good maintenance practices to the new guys and punishing those that refuse to be safe and follow tech data. The AF does what it can to mitigate problems like this through FTDs and annual training but that is all they can really do. It is up to the NCOs, in my opinion, to change the attitude on the flight line. If you don't like the way your subbordinate's doing something, teach him the right way to do it, and if he/she refuses to do it the right way....well, there's avenues for that as well. |
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discofishing
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Posted: Apr 12, 2010 - 08:53 AM
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Elite 1K

Joined: Nov 07, 2008 - 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Army maintenance sounds a lot different than AF. We take wiring issues pretty seriously. Aircraft are rutinely removed from flight status if wires are even suspected. Engineers can't think of everything and make mistakes just like everyone else. This is part of the reason we have TCTOs. In the case of the drip loop you're talking about, it was probably more cost effective to splice the wires than to run a whole new harness that probably spidered all over the aircraft. Shielded harnesses can be a pain in the a$$ in tight spaces, but I don't think they are all that hard if you have room. Also that is one of those uncommon wiring jobs that a lot of specs have never done, or haven't done in a long time. It's all about passing on good maintenance practices to the new guys and punishing those that refuse to be safe and follow tech data. The AF does what it can to mitigate problems like this through FTDs and annual training but that is all they can really do. It is up to the NCOs, in my opinion, to change the attitude on the flight line. If you don't like the way your subbordinate's doing something, teach him the right way to do it, and if he/she refuses to do it the right way....well, there's avenues for that as well.
I hate to say it, but the Army has a problem with it's maintenance practices and I imagine it is WAY different than the other branches of the military. Like I've said in other threads, I'm probably the biggest critic of Army aviation maintenance you'll ever meet. I agree that it is up to the NCOs just like in the AF. Sadly the Army doesn't test its NCOs or promote them based on their aircraft knowledge. The attitude is that an Apache (the most advanced helicopter in the world) is merely a motorpool vehicle and that working on them is a job only for E-1s thru E-4s. I had to learn how to use crimpers, multimeters, scopemeters, all the tools of the avionics/electrical trade, on my own (barely any of it was taught at tech school). I owe that knowledge to reading just about every single page of TO 1–1A–14 when I was an E-2. When I became a SGT (E-5) I tried to pass down the GOOD and CORRECT maintenance practices, but I always had a few troops that just refused to listen. For some reason, guys just didn't feel they needed to attach turret heads or positioners to their crimpers (blue handled M22520-XX series). Glad I don't have to write kids up anymore and lock them up at parade rest saying "my pen is mightier than your mouth."
Cool links for aircraft electricians:
http://www.dmctools.com/store/browser.asp
http://www.dmctools.com/_pdf/Catalogs/C ... gGuide.pdf |
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Raptor_DCTR
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Posted: Apr 14, 2010 - 11:50 PM
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Joined: May 23, 2005 - 03:13 AM
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| Bummer man, I wouldn't have been able to deal with anything like that. I try to teach my troops the right way to do things and if they don't want to listen i find a lot of other *ahem* interesting things for them to do. There's always a crapper to clean, garbage to take out, floors to clean etc. That's the beauty of being an NCO. The newer guys (and some of the more experience airmen) know not to try and screw with me or they'll be doing details. AF tech school was a little more in depth, not a whole lot. We have training classes we go through after getting to the flight line called FTDs (field training detachment) which is like tech school but a little more in depth. We aren't going into the field blind though. I know the 1-1A-14 well, use it all the time. It's sad the Army is like that. Sounds like you had the right attitude though about doing things the right way so good on ya! |
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discofishing
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Posted: Apr 15, 2010 - 02:55 AM
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Elite 1K

Joined: Nov 07, 2008 - 10:15 PM
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We have training classes we go through after getting to the flight line called FTDs (field training detachment) which is like tech school but a little more in depth.
Is there anyway I can get some more information on those FTDs? A former 1SG is now the sergeant major of the Army Aviation Logistics School at Fort Eustis. Maybe I could pass the FTD concept to him. The way I figure it is if the Army spent more money properly training it's troops and did continuation training after they left school, they would end up saving money in the long run because the techs would do better maintenance and troubeshoot things quicker. Apache helicopters would be really reliable if it weren't for some of the goobers that work on them. That includes civilian techs too. |
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Raptor_DCTR
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Posted: Apr 15, 2010 - 03:35 AM
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Joined: May 23, 2005 - 03:13 AM
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| You could try contacting the 372nd Training Squadron to get some info on class structure and maybe develop a sylabus |
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