Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Davies: both carriers will take JSF
Tuesday, November 03, 2009

Both the Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales aircraft carriers will be able to carry the joint strike fighter (JSF) according to defence equipment and support minister Quentin Davies. Speaking in the House of Commons he also rubbished the Gray Report's claim that there was a £2bn annual overspend in the MoD's equipment programme.

In October, it was reported that government would downgrade either the Queen Elizabeth or the Prince of Wales carrier, taking away their ability to carry the JSF. Reports stated the MoD was looking to save money on the 65,000 tonne carriers, which are already £1bn over budget.

Davies said reports the carrier plans were to be scaled down were "complete rubbish".

"There is no suggestion at all, and there has never been in our minds at all, to re-specify the two aircraft carriers," he said.

"There has been no change in that programme, and neither has there been any change in our JSF programme. We are already committed to purchasing the first three aircraft."

He also said there was "no evidential basis" to the statement in the Gray report that between £1bn and £2.2bn was being lost each year as a result of failure to control equipment spending.

"The very fact that the range is between £1bn and two point something billion shows how imprecise that statement inevitably would be," said Davies.

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One can see how the Brit Media have a 'screw loose' (or two). Speculation will continue though until the JSF-B 'Daves' are purchased. Still it is good to see previous rumour about 'nothing really' has been discounted.

Why such the delay in denying these reported 2nd carrier downgrade stories and a new, 50 (??) some odd, reduced F-35 unit procurement scheme?? That is some delay, I'm sorry. Totally unacceptable trying to come up with an official response, IMO. (and must be clarified, Davies is saying now that there will be No reduced F-35 order? Seriously, what the hell is going on in the F-35 procurement gamemanship?)

Personally (and very unfortunately), I wish the 2nd carrier was indeed scaled down, at the very least..

(despite the jobs and specific industrial lobby interest) the concept for a future 2 carrier fleet is arguably the most national security-flawed and defence concerning policy, MoD could make. I'm sorry..

My 2 £ sterling.

geogen, I'm just guessing that British Parliament needed to be sitting for Davies to make this statement to the Parliament. Why someone should deny every piece of B/S in the British Press is beyond me. The UK press is notorious for making stuff up; or being used in a political way to make irrelevant politcal points. In other words - for the moment - the entire story about 2nd carrier etc. was a 'beatup'.

As happens in Australia with a similar system often different ways to problem solve are leaked to the Press by Parliamentarians who then gauge the response or lack thereof, to then announce something entirely different or a watered down version of the original leaked solution to a problem. This has been going on for years in both countries. No big deal.

This smells of lobbying over the F136 alternate engine. The americans want to scrapp it, loosing business for the GE/RR team and english jobs. By threatening to reduce the F-35B order, the UK DOD is trying to get the alternate engine funded and prodused.

jacarlsen wrote:

This smells of lobbying over the F136 alternate engine. The Americans want to scrap it, loosing business for the GE/RR team and English jobs. By threatening to reduce the F-35B order, the UK DOD is trying to get the alternate engine funded and produced.

Makes a great of sense to me! Remember, the original story stated the UK would keep both Carriers. Yet, only half of the aircraft? Further, the second Carrier would only operate Helicopters??? Clearly, a CVF would be an extremely extensive platform to operate a small number of Helicopters. (i.e. overkill)

Like many here I believed in was just more politics as usual. Confused

The UK press make just about everything up - they just want people to take notice - and most of them do unfortunately.

They need 3 carriers, not 2. 1 at sea, 1 in port preparing to go to sea, and 1 undergoing maintenance.

No £ sterling for 3 carriers, let alone 2. Do you understand how vulernable QE class carriers are in the modern era, especially without AEGIS type anti-ballistic/anti-cruise missile escort and latest ASW assets? How many combatant escort and support ships, plus new attack subs (in addition to the independent destroyer, sub patrols) would be required for procurement, if 3 carriers were 'needed'? Do you understand how the RN cannot support 2 QE carrier class battle groups, in addition to traditional independent patrols/missions? 2 carriers will consume massive, unprecedented, disproportionate budget shares. There will little left for actually arming the Navy with latest weapons, and for operating the full battle groups/tactical squadrons. Unfortunately, in my humble opion..

geogen wrote:

No £ sterling for 3 carriers, let alone 2. Do you understand how vulernable QE class carriers are in the modern era, especially without AEGIS type anti-ballistic/anti-cruise missile escort and latest ASW assets? How many combatant escort and support ships, plus new attack subs (in addition to the independent destroyer, sub patrols) would be required for procurement, if 3 carriers were 'needed'? Do you understand how the RN cannot support 2 QE carrier class battle groups, in addition to traditional independent patrols/missions? 2 carriers will consume massive, unprecedented, disproportionate budget shares. There will little left for actually arming the Navy with latest weapons, and for operating the full battle groups/tactical squadrons. Unfortunately, in my humble opion..

While, I don't see the UK getting more than 2 CVF's. I wouldn't worry to much about escorts for the RN Carriers. As during any likely conflict the CVF's would also be escorted by Allied Warships. (including Aegis Types) Wink

MOD budget planning is a dying patient.

We will know this works after the next 2 dozen squabbles over all kinds of things in the MOD being underfunded. The best words to say would be: "good luck".

Quote:

Do you understand how vulernable QE class carriers are in the modern era, especially without AEGIS type anti-ballistic/anti-cruise missile escort and latest ASW assets?

The Brits already have the answer. I would venture that these are as capable if not more than our Arleigh Burke class DDG's at the anti-air warfare game. There are already has at least 3 hulls of the Type 45 (HMS Daring Class) in the water today: http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/horizon/

Geogen, I don't know if they'll have enough to support 3 CVBG's at once but with 8 planned/6 contracted, looks like if they needed to deploy both CVF's at the same time in an emergency surge, they'll have enough modern AAW escorts to defend them. Will be nice to have a British big deck carrier out there again with ours when the time finally comes.

Jetnerd

jetnerd wrote:

Quote:

Do you understand how vulernable QE class carriers are in the modern era, especially without AEGIS type anti-ballistic/anti-cruise missile escort and latest ASW assets?

The Brits already have the answer. I would venture that these are as capable if not more than our Arleigh Burke class DDG's at the anti-air warfare game. There are already has at least 3 hulls of the Type 45 (HMS Daring Class) in the water today: http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/horizon/

Geogen, I don't know if they'll have enough to support 3 CVBG's at once but with 8 planned/6 contracted, looks like if they needed to deploy both CVF's at the same time in an emergency surge, they'll have enough modern AAW escorts to defend them. Will be nice to have a British big deck carrier out there again with ours when the time finally comes.

Jetnerd

Like I said before Future RN CVBG's would be support by Allied Navies during any major Conflict or War. In short the CVF's will have more than enough escorts..... Wink

Grand hopes to stick with the plan. However, the service chiefs have already laid out what they can afford over the coming years (not much). Hollow force and all that.

United Kingdom Announces Approval of Third F-35B Joint Strike Fighter Purchase

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 22722.html

FORT WORTH, Texas, Dec. 22 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The Joint Combat Aircraft (JCA) program has announced that the United Kingdom has received financial approval to purchase its third Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) F-35B Lightning II operational test aircraft, reinforcing the U.K.'s continued commitment to the Joint Strike Fighter program's upcoming Operational Test and Evaluation (OT&E).

"The U.K. this week received financial approval to go ahead and purchase the third U.K. STOVL OT&E aircraft that is planned within LRIP 4. Given the extremely tight financial climate in the U.K. government and the consequent impact across public spending, especially defence, this is a significant achievement," said Air Commodore Graham Farnell, the U.K.'s Joint Combat Aircraft Team head. "I believe it reflects well upon the JSF program and it is a measure of the confidence that the U.K. has in both the F-35 Lightning II and the program to deliver this capability."

This approval follows recent F-35 down-select or procurement commitments by Australia, Norway, the Netherlands, Italy and the United States. The strength of the F-35 business case has enabled program suppliers to obtain the capital financing needed to recapitalize the industrial base and produce the F-35 in high quantities over the next 30 years.

"The United Kingdom's participation in F-35 Operational Test and Evaluation, and the associated commitment to purchase F-35s in early production lots, help ensure production stability as we move from the current assembly rate of one aircraft per month to our goal of one per day," said Matt Maxwell, Lockheed Martin director for F-35 Low Rate Initial Production.

The U.K. has invested $2 billion in the F-35's development - the largest contribution among the program's eight partner nations. More than 100 British companies are involved in the program, including BAE Systems, which produces the aircraft's aft fuselage and tails; Rolls-Royce, developer and manufacturer of the shaft-driven lift fan and other propulsion components for the F-35B STOVL variant; and Martin Baker, maker of the jet's ejection seats. ....

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Both CVF's will get F-35B's!