Indian Navy keen to buy newer generation aircraft!

Well, India already has a 4.5 Generation Fighter. (i.e. Mig-29K) So, could newer translate into the F-35B or F-35C???




New Delhi, Nov 22 (IANS) The Indian Navy has floated a Request for Information (RFI) for a newer generation of aircraft which can operate from the two indigenous aircraft carriers it will commission over the next 10 years.

The Ministry of Defence and industry sources indicate that the RFI, issued recently, is of a “generic” nature, looking for newer platforms and airborne technologies and what is on offer from some of the well-known manufacturers. The US Boeing and French Dassault have confirmed receipt of the RFI for their respective F18 Super Hornet and Rafale.

The number of newer generation aircraft is yet to be decided.

According to the coming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, the new generation aircraft will be in addition to the 45 Mig-29Ks the navy is buying from Russia, 16 of which were ordered in 2004 along with Admiral Gorshkov. The Mig-29K is a modernized naval variant of the Mig-29 operational with the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The order for an additional 29 Mig-29Ks is being processed, and is likely to be placed shortly after price negotiations and delivery schedule are worked out.

There should be no delay from Russia on the supply of the Mig-29Ks although it has delayed the delivery of Gorshkov by four years and is also demanding an extra $1.2 billion over and above the contract price of $974 million. The old carrier was given free and the price was for repairing and refurbishing the vessel which was damaged in an onboard fire accident.

The Super Hornet, a successor of the earlier Hornet, was introduced in 1998 for the US Navy while Rafale, a successor of the old Mirage 2005, has both air force and naval versions already operational. Both these aircraft are also competing for the nearly 200 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) requirement of the Indian Air Force.

Eurofighter Vice President and Head of India Campaign Directorate Dr Matthias Schmidlin told India Strategic that while he could not confirm receipt of the RFI for the naval variant of Eurofighter, his company would bid for the Indian Navy’s requirement if invited.

In fact, he pointed out, Eurofighter is the only aircraft among the six contenders for the IAF order which would have thrust vectoring capability in the coming years. Thrust vectoring capability allows an aircraft to stand still in the air, and takeoff and land even in vertical mode like a helicopter.

Some 200 Eurofighters have been produced so far, predominantly to meet the requirements of participating nations which include Germany, Britain, Spain and Italy.

Thrust vectoring is being developed and would be operational on Eurofighters within the first half of the next decade, Dr Schmidlin said.

Harrier, which India bought in the late 1970s from Britain, was the first aircraft with thrust vectoring. The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), being developed by Lockheed Martin for US Air Force and Navy for the coming years, will have this capability.

Besides Boeing, Dassault and Eurofighter, the other contenders in the IAF competition are Mig-35 (a newer version of Mig-29), Gripen from Sweden and F 16 Viper IN (US Lockheed Martin).

The Indian naval brass is reportedly only doing a bit of loud thinking on its new requirement, but if it formally opens the competition in the coming years, it would add a new dimension to the IAF’s ongoing contest.

IAF’s Request for Proposals (or tenders), is for a firm order for 126 aircraft and for 63 more as an option at the same price. Given the continuing fall in the number of IAF squadrons due to the obsolescence of its largely Soviet-vintage aircraft, a repeat order for at least 100 more MRCAs is likely.

If the Indian Navy chooses the same aircraft, then it would be a bonus for the supplier, and also for HAL, which would be the lead integrator for Transfer of Technology (ToT) and 50 percent offset mandatory in the RfP.

Procedurally, the Navy would also find it easier to buy the same aircraft without opening an international competition, as it would be a follow-on order requiring no multi-vendor bid.

The Indian Navy has one small aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, which has recently been refitted and modernized for life-extension. There are a dozen old Harriers to operate from its deck, while Gorshkov will be available in 2012 or 2013.

Notably, Gorshkov is a 44,000-tonne carrier while India’s first indigenous aircraft carrier, being built at Kochi, will only have about 37,000-tonne displacement. The second carrier, already sanctioned by the government, could be modified to be a little bigger.

Both these carriers are being designed by Italy’s Fincantieri.

It may also be noted that both Eurofighter and Rafale are smaller in size than the F 18 Super Hornet, which operate from very large US aircraft carriers floating in all the oceans.

But Boeing IDS’ Head for India, Dr Vivek Lall, told India Strategic that Boeing had done a computer simulation to verify that the Super Hornet could operate from Gorshkov and Indian carriers as and when they are commissioned.


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"In fact, he pointed out, Eurofighter is the only aircraft among the six contenders for the IAF order which would have thrust vectoring capability in the coming years. Thrust vectoring capability allows an aircraft to stand still in the air, and takeoff and land even in vertical mode like a helicopter."

I think, someone does not understand the difference between STOVL and thrust-vectoring, when pertaining to the Typhoon.

Plus, the Typhoon is not available in a Naval Variant.


BTW I would add that its far simpler to add "thrust-vectoring" than navalising a aircraft.

strykerxo wrote:I think, someone does not understand the difference between STOVL and thrust-vectoring, when pertaining to the Typhoon.

The quote, altough slightly misleading, was propably made to demonstrate a possible feat on the Typhoon that's similar to what X-31 did.

X-31 24-degree angle of attack landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCELX-NgqFQ

I do not fully understand why India is looking into these aircraft, as their new carrier will be hard pressed to handle them. Their new carrier INS Vikramaditya is not equipped with a steam catapult, which would require the Super Hornet or the Rafale to use the ski jump. While thats not impossible, it was done with test F-14s way back in the day, it is less than ideal. Anyhow, what ever happened to India's little Navalazied version of the Tejas indiginous aircraft, did that fail recently? Although, the fact that these two aircraft (there is no Eurofighter that is a carrier compatibel aircraft, so it shouldnt be a contender) are also being looked at for the Navy may increase their odds in the air force's MRCA competition...

npeterman18 wrote:I do not fully understand why India is looking into these aircraft, as their new carrier will be hard pressed to handle them. Their new carrier INS Vikramaditya is not equipped with a steam catapult, which would require the Super Hornet or the Rafale to use the ski jump. While thats not impossible, it was done with test F-14s way back in the day, it is less than ideal. Anyhow, what ever happened to India's little Navalazied version of the Tejas indiginous aircraft, did that fail recently? Although, the fact that these two aircraft (there is no Eurofighter that is a carrier compatibel aircraft, so it shouldnt be a contender) are also being looked at for the Navy may increase their odds in the air force's MRCA competition...

The Super Hornet and Rafale can operate from Indian Carriers as effectively if not better than the Mig-29K! This idea that Pure Naval Fighters can't operate from Ski-Jumps is ludicrous.

I stand corrected, haha . Can they operate at equivalent weights to their catapult launch weights, or is there a reduction?

AFAIK, a ski jump has to be optimised for intended aircraft with that aircraft's undercarriage (amongst other things) being suitably beefy to take the strain of ski jump launch. AFAIK the MiG-29Ks don't get airborne with a useful load and on and on... Better to get a JSF-B.

EDIT Here is the idea about 'lack of useful takeoff performance'. Apologies it was about the Su-33 not the MiG-29K (about the latter I have no clue):

http://www.neptunuslex.com/2009/08/01/flanker-ops/

Cannot vouch for accuracy of this table but it is a start:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6484979/Birds ... ments-2008 (169kb PDF - simple to join to download)

Has a typhoon flown with these vaunted CFTs? I've seen the Rafale with them, but not the Eurofighter. Wouldn't that just degrade its bring back capability to the carier?

npeterman18, the table above implies an approx. 1,000lb penalty less 'bring back' difference to conventional aircraft. However it is not clear if the CFT mod weight difference would also take into account a 'navalised' weight difference. If not then there is more weight added to any 'navalised' Typhoon. No one seems interested in such a thing at moment AFAIK. The French have the Rafale (navalised) and seem happy with that.

npeterman18 asks: "Can they operate at equivalent weights to their catapult launch weights, or is there a reduction?"

There are a few variables to consider that are unknown to me specifically except in the past the USN has conducted legacy Hornet 'ski jump' tests. I think this is mentioned in this thread: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-12631.html

For a conventional carrier aircraft to use a 'ski jump' the undercarriage and ski jump angle would have to be optimised (whatever that might mean for any particular aircraft). After land testing the deck length for take off and Wind Over the Deck (WOD) for any particular aircraft weight would need to be known (along with temp variables and whatnot) for a safe ski jump launch. Not impossible though and I'm just saying that these details (to my knowledge) are probably not public knowledge. Any aircraft carrier with less than two catapults would consider immediately "what does it take to get the aircraft off the deck if the only catapult is not working". This question might only be for a flyoff to a land base for further operations.

EDIT Here is some information about 'ski jump' testing in USN etc:

Takeoff [Ski Jump] Ramp Compatibility: “An aircraft performing a ramp-assisted STO experiences an increased normal load factor, the result of centripetal acceleration applied as the aircraft traverses the curved ramp. While the benefit to aircraft takeoff performance is predominantly a function of the inclination angle at ramp exit, the load on the aircraft is a function of the ramp’s radius of curvature, coupled with the geometry and dynamics of the aircraft landing gear…. However, changes in ramp profile that lessen its radius of curvature, such as an increase in exit angle for a fixed-length ramp, or a decrease in the length of a ramp with the same exit angle, may cause the STO ramp takeoff to become the most severe ground load contributor. Future ships incorporating ramps should account not just for takeoff performance benefits added by the ramp, but also for the impact of added ground loads on any aircraft to use the ramp. Use of high fidelity aircraft simulations would allow the ramp profile to be “tuned” for a particular launch scenario, such that the ramp design maximizes aircraft performance gain while minimizing the impact of added ground loads.”
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA399988 (1Mb) page 6
&
Go to page: http://tiny.cc/GqjXw
Click on “See First Page” and a PDF page will open up with information about testing, I don’t have full PDF.
“CTOL Ski Jump: Analysis, Simulation, and Flight Test” John W. Clark Jr.* and Marvin M. Walterst Naval Air Development Center, Warminster, Pennsylvania “In the past several years, the ski-jump (ramp-assisted)launch concept has received considerable attention within the U.S. Navy. The specific goal was set (and achieved) to demonstrate through flight test the feasibility of, and quantify performance gains from, ski-jump launch of the T-2C, F-14A, and F/A-18A aircraft using a 100-ft ramp with variable end angles of 6 and 9 degs. The analysis, piloted simulation, performance predictions, and flight safety considerations leading to flight test, as well as a compari-son of analytical predictions with flight test results for the three aircraft, are discussed. The developed analytical capability, although somewhat conservative, proved to be highly effective in preparation for, and support of, the flight test and in successfully predicting the 40-60% reduction in takeoff distance demonstration in flight test.”
&
“26 September 1983 – The first takeoffs of an F/A-18 Hornet from a ski-jump ramp were conducted at NAS Patuxent River, Md. The tests were part of an evaluation of conventional jet aircraft using an upward curved ramp to shorten takeoff roll.” http://www.history.navy.mil/avh-1910/PART11.PDF (page 10)

I was under the impression that the STOBAR capability of the Typhoon was deleted when France left the consortium.

dport, don't know about your claim (STOBAR Typhoon) however an old discussion about these issues can be found in this long article "Future Carrier Aviation Options: A British Perspective" perhaps?:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 6334/pg_8/

(a popup ad is easily bypassed - there are 21 'pages' to this article.)

There is a link in above article to 'navalised Typhoon' that does not work (for me):

http://eurofightertyphoon.com/

Maybe SAAB GripenN NG should get cooking??

It would seem to be prudent anyway, if Navy piggy-backed on IAF MMRCA selection (from this armchair perspective at least)? I'm curious too if the -29K would be invited (or has been) as well for such naval RFI?? Couldn't a further evolved -29K be sufficient to compete w/Super and RafaleM? Or is Indian Naval strat in this case possibly to diversify strategic geopolitical exposure, akin to IAF?