Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Pilotasso wrote:

It wasnt like the AMRAAM was developed overnight either, If I reclall it took 10 years or so from trials into service. So whats so special about meteors schedule?

Competition? where is it? R-77?

Meteor, or what would become Meteor was first requested in 1994 from what I can gather whilst grazing the net. So by that already it is roughly 16 years since it was first conceived.
Factor in delays which are pretty much unavoidable in this day and age no matter who you are and we could be looking at another 7 - 10 years till it becomes operational in limited use. Perhaps by 2025 it may be fully operational and tested.
I also wouldn't mind betting that either a ramjet powered AMRAAM or the JDRADM will be on the market and available to purchase long before Meteor therefore pretty much killing off Meteors chances of becoming the standard A-A missile for many airforces. Which leads to the posibility of a full cancellation of the program if MBDA were to realise it will be to late to make a tidy profit if the competition is seen to be to far ahead.
Don't bank on Meteor and I'm sure the Indian airforce won't buy an aircraft which needs a currently non existant missile to get the best out of it...

F-16.net Sponsor

besides Meteor price estimates in 2007 were around 1 milllion pouns a piece, so the price in 2017 when it will be inducted will easily be atleast twice that amount. inflation is a bitch. By then IAF will have oth Astra 1 and 2 inducted. Astra 1 has arange of over 110KM and there are unconfirmed reports of a ramjet Astra-2 in the works with a much longer range.

Astra 1 has a range of 80 km head on, so even AIM-120A/B is better.

An aircraft supercrusing at 15,000 m or roughly 50,000 ft can launch Astra at a target over 90-110km away. @ 30,000 ft the Astra has a range of 45km and at sea level that range is around 30km. 80km is the normal range at cruising altitudes over 38,000 ft. Aim-120A/B has ranges between 50-70km. Aim-120 C-5 has ranges around 110km and hence the Astra is similar to the Aim-120 C-5. Aim-120C-7 has ranges of around 120km+. Now i am not saying the Astra is as good as the C-7 but for a country building its first A2A missile the Astra certainly touches the mark. The active radar seeker has a range of 15km or more and it can sustain over 40G in lateral yaw/pitch turns. Its certainly more capable than the R-77 and Chinese replicas in aerodynamics because the R-77 can engage targets maneuvering upto 12G an ability far lower than the Astra or the Aim-120. Moreover, the missile is still in test phase and requires 20-40 more air launched tests to be fully inducted, so by the time it is fully inducted it should one of the deadliest rocket propelled A2A missiles comparable only to the Aim-120/r-77 type missiles. Offcourse Meteor is different league and India has enough know how on ram jet tech to actually develop a much lower cost ram jet A2A missile within 5 years. The IBN link below says that DRDO is actually looking at developing ramjet version after gaining lots of ramjet experience with our home made Akash SAM which is a ramjet missile.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-testfi ... 550-3.html

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/2-ast ... ed/566078/

dokhla wrote:

An aircraft supercrusing at 15,000 m or roughly 50,000 ft can launch Astra at a target over 90-110km away. @ 30,000 ft the Astra has a range of 45km and at sea level that range is around 30km. 80km is the normal range at cruising altitudes over 38,000 ft.

This is impossilble. Missile with a range of 30km at sea level should have a range of almost 200km at very high altitude.
If it's true that Astra missile has a range of 45km @ 30 000 ft that would mean that it's slightly better than R-77. Here is a good graph showing a range of the Adder, and here you can see how the missile range is changing with different altitude.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... R-77-2.jpg

dokhla wrote:

Aim-120A/B has ranges between 50-70km.

At what altitude? AIM-120A/B has a range of ~50-60km @ 33 000 ft. This means that it outranges R-77.

dokhla wrote:

Aim-120 C-5 has ranges around 110km

We don't know much about real range of C-5. I know that it has greater range than A/B versions but I don't know how much greater.

dokhla wrote:

and it can sustain over 40G in lateral yaw/pitch turns. Its certainly more capable than the R-77 and Chinese replicas in aerodynamics because the R-77 can engage targets maneuvering upto 12G an ability far lower than the Astra or the Aim-120.

No, no, no you don't understand what it's about. R-77 can engage targets maneuvering up tu 12G, but it doesn't mean that it can sustain only 12G!

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 23, 2009 - 08:44 AM Posts: 97

dokhla wrote:

...........home made Akash SAM which is a ramjet missile.

That's a somewhat selective representation or perhaps unintended wording.

The Akash was heavily based on the tech baselined for the SA-6 - and its development was initiated over 20 years ago. It had substantial problems for years - and the atypical probs that DRDO seemed to face whenever they tried to modify and make indigenous, extant russian designs.

ie, the engineers nightmare of integrating and modifying an already capable system for local needs.

Having worked with ex-DRDO weapons scientists it sure isn't because of a lack of ability on their part

Akash may have been inspired on the SA-6 but is nothing like it because its a pure Ramjet SAM and due to its continuos thrust is much more effective than Patriot SAMs. during initial developement they had problems but now the missile works and is being inducted. Secondly thanx to the brahmos we have a good idea on ramjets as well...plus our own scramjet brahmos is being readied...the scram jet engine was lab tested last year and hit speeds of mach 5.26 on test one. the scramjet brahmos will have a top speed of mach 7-8. Astra should be better than the r-77 because it will replace the r-77 in IAF's inventory and i doubt the Af will accept a missile inferior to the r-77...the r-77s max maneuvering limit in yaw and pitch is around 20G. I doubt the Aim-120 A/B has ranges beyond the R-77. if there is a will... Astra with ramjet isnt too far off because our ram jet and scramjet tech is maturing quickly and we're on track towards test launching the first hypersonic cruise missile in 2012.

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 23, 2009 - 08:44 AM Posts: 97

dokhla wrote:

because its a pure Ramjet SAM and due to its continuous thrust is much more effective than Patriot SAMs.

that is indeed a curious thing to say. one because effectiveness is not about continuous thrust - and two because the missiles are fundamentally different.

in very rough terms. its about energy management and manouvre at termination - not thrust.

re brahmos, I really have no idea why DRDO still refers to a re-engined solution as being in the family. once you change the engine dynamics and system you will have a new missile - it cannot be part of the same family esp if its a scramjet.

it will be to all intents and purposes a new platform as flight and handling characteristics will all change. I've seen the same arguments get thrown about re wet and dry systems - and IMO they invariably get the concepts hopelessly confused

dokhla wrote:

Akash may have been inspired on the SA-6 but is nothing like it because its a pure Ramjet SAM and due to its continuos thrust is much more effective than Patriot SAMs.

Ok, lets compare Patriot PAC-2 and Akash missiles.
Akash: range - 30km, speed: 2,5 Ma (wikipedia)
PAC-2: range - over 100km, speed: over 5 Ma

dokhla wrote:

the scramjet brahmos will have a top speed of mach 7-8.

Deam on... missile cruising at sea level with a speed of mach 7-8 would have significantly lower range.

dokhla wrote:

Astra should be better than the r-77 because it will replace the r-77 in IAF's inventory and i doubt the Af will accept a missile inferior to the r-77...

I'm sure it is, but remember - Astra is a smaller missile, but it seems it might have a slightly better range than russian R-77, and maybe even higher Pk (Adder's Pk is only 0.6-0.7).

dokhla wrote:

I doubt the Aim-120 A/B has ranges beyond the R-77.

You may doubt, but this is a fact. AIM-120A/B range is 15-25% greater. In medium range AAM category AIM-120A/B is(probably) only outranged by russian R-27ER missile.
I have a quote from http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/aam/astra-aam.html :

Quote:

This indigenous missile is intended to have performance characteristics similar to the R-77RVV-AE (AA-12), which currently forms part of the IAF’s missile armoury.

dokhla wrote:

if there is a will... Astra with ramjet isnt too far off because our ram jet and scramjet tech is maturing quickly

Is there any Astra-ramjet program? I don't see it.

akash has top speed of between mach 2.8 and mach 3.5, the PAC-1 and 2 have ranges between 70 and 160km...but the newest PAC-3 only has a range of 15km. Compared to PAC-3 the Akash is said to be more capable. This is why PAC-3 offered by LM was rejected by MOD. The scamjet brahmos doesnt need to fly its entire envelope at low altitude. The current brahmos-1 has max range of 300km in hi-low flight path, in a lo-lo terrain hugging mode, the missile has a max range of 120km. The missile hits its top speed of mach 3 at high altitude and skims down to its target at velocities over mach 2 in terminal stage. The same can be achived with the brahmos-2, it will hit top speeds of mach 7-8 at high altitude and will have terminal velocity in skimming mode of around mach 4+ or so. It wont be hard to achieve that because we already have Shaurya Tactical Missile which is sort of a hybrid missile, it doesnt have a ballistic flight path, the missile climbs to around 50km and flies towards it targets in cruise missile style flight path, allowing it to hit a target 700km away with 1 ton payload, the missile exceeds speed of mach 6 even before it reach a distance of 300km, it can sustain speeds of mach 7 and has a terminal velocity of mach 5. This missile is canisterized and is a derivative of the Sagarika Sub launched missile, this missile can hit targets over 1200km away with a smaller payload of 500kg.

the r-77 is a standard that Astra has to meet but IAF will certainly look for better performance than the r-77. Astra Ramjet as of now may exist but no official word, they're probably in design stage.

dokhla wrote:

akash has top speed of between mach 2.8 and mach 3.5, the PAC-1 and 2 have ranges between 70 and 160km...but the newest PAC-3 only has a range of 15km. Compared to PAC-3 the Akash is said to be more capable.

I think, that you don't really know what are you talking about... PAC-3 and Akash are totally different systems! You can't compare them. It's like comparing AIM-54 Phoenix missile to AIM-9 sidewinder.

dokhla wrote:

The missile hits its top speed of mach 3 at high altitude and skims down to its target at velocities over mach 2 in terminal stage. The same can be achived with the brahmos-2, it will hit top speeds of mach 7-8 at high altitude and will have terminal velocity in skimming mode of around mach 4+ or so.

So:
Brahmos-1: hi-lo flight profile, speed 2-3 Ma
Brahmos-2: similar flight profile and weight, speed 4-7 Ma. This means that you have to trade range for speed. I'd say that the hypersonic brahmos will have a range of 150-200km. And even less for anti-ship sea skimming fligh profile.

dokhla wrote:

the r-77 is a standard that Astra has to meet but IAF will certainly look for better performance than the r-77. Astra Ramjet as of now may exist but no official word, they're probably in design stage.

So basicly - as for now Astra Ramjet is only your imagination. Wink

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Indian Navy keen to buy newer generation aircraft!