Forum: F-22A Raptor

Rafale Vs Typhoon : 7 - 1 ?'?
Shocked

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Take it with a grain of salt, everybody is claiming victory.

On the other hand its possible, French pilots are very agressive, the saudis just now have trained but unexperienced few pilots.
Besides that even though the Euro is a better platform for AA combat the Rafale doesnt lag behind much, in WVR it gets realy close contest and I beleive it was what the exercise focused on.

From everything I've read, the Rafale may indeed, currently, be a superior AA platform than the Tiffy. Remember that in order to get their aircraft relatively early, after a 20-year development program, the Tiffy partner countries split their buys into tranches. Tranche 1 and 2, which are the aircraft currently fielded, are not at all what the Tiffy was supposed to be or could be, with severely limited capabilities compared to comparable fighters currently in service. The lack of AESA, which is something Rafale currently suffers from as well, is a huge deficit, especially if you consider that some F-15Cs, the F/A-18E/F, and the F-16E/F all have it, not to mention the F-22. That means that BVR, the Tiffy gets smoked by all of the above mentioned. Also, Rafale has been in service longer, and therefore its pilots know far better what their airplane can and cannot do compared to Tiffy drivers. Finally, all indications are that, currently, Rafale's optronics and its ESM gear are far better than anything in the Tiffy. Taking into account significant doubts as to whether Tiffy's Tranche 3 capabilities will ever materialize, Rafale is currently the better all-around fighter. There is no doubt that if I were shopping for a fighter, I'd get the Rafale over the Typhoon, although I would still go for an AESA-equipped F-16, F-15 or F-18. However, if Rafale ever fields an AESA, it will be a superior platform to everything out there with the possible exception of the F-35 (and F-22, of course, but that is not in the market). Rafale's Achilles' heel is its cost, which is huge, considering that France went at it alone, unlike Tiffy and F-35, both of which had a hell of a lot more resources to play with and a lot more countries involved. Nevertheless, when you consider that very fact, that France developed and fielded this magnificent fighter all on its own, it is an enormous accomplishment of which France should be rightly proud. Now, I only hope it is better than that POS Peugeot, hands-down the worse car I've ever driven...

Or they only play dog fight ? Seems like Rafale can't shoot any F-22A .

I'm just curious if it's already been reported... as to whether the Typhoon being exercised here was a Block I or blk II? I.E. only blk II has IRST upgrade? I mean... what constitutes WVR these days?? The MK1 eyeball, or a locked-on 15k ranged IRST picture displayed on a big-screen, of the 'soon-to-be' merge?

Also, WVR could deduce an actual 'weapons related' factor in 'Winnings vs losings'? Could a MICA IR be a better heads-on 'WVR' system than ASRAAM? (Assuming both MICA IR and ASRAAM were simulated in this exercise)??

This being said, I would not want to be opposing an F-22, Golden Eagle, F-16 blk 60 (or Super blk II) 'Quarter-backed' Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen/Mirage 2000 Blue force..

Cheers-

Pilotasso wrote:

Take it with a grain of salt, everybody is claiming victory.

On the other hand its possible, French pilots are very agressive, the saudis just now have trained but unexperienced few pilots.

7-1 is a result between French Air Army and British RAF not EAU Air Army

The source is two famous and impartial French journalist.

http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2009/12/la-raf-nest-plus-ce-quelle-est.html

and

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/12/carton-plein-pour-le-rafale-lors-dexercices-aux-emirats.html

This two journalist was present at the same French MOD Press Report
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/defense/votre_espace/journalistes/points_presse/point_presse_du_ministere_de_la_defense_du_17_decembre_2009

To resume the Rafale participation at ATLC from the french MOD

Rafale (ADA) vs Typhoon (RAF): 4-0 for Rafale, with degraded AA weaponry. 3-1 for Rafale, with much more degraded AA weaponry.

Rafale vs F-22: 1-0 for the F22 in six match.

Rafales also have performed SEAD missions and were able to detect missile sites that had not been detected by F-16CJs.

Rafale have demonstrated its multirole capabilities by simulating the launch of 6 Sagem AASM on as many targets and firing 3 MICA AA missiles within one minute.

The Rafale famed OSF was able to “silently” detect targets at up to 40 KM (24 NM).

UK MOD is absent about the ATLC exercice and US MOD just about F22 versus F16 and M2000 of EAU Air Army. Consequently i can't confirm the French MOD result.

Sorry for my english.

dalius wrote:

Pilotasso wrote:

Take it with a grain of salt, everybody is claiming victory.

On the other hand its possible, French pilots are very agressive, the saudis just now have trained but unexperienced few pilots.

7-1 is a result between French Air Army and British RAF not EAU Air Army

The source is two famous and impartial French journalist.

http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2009/12/la-raf-nest-plus-ce-quelle-est.html

and

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/12/carton-plein-pour-le-rafale-lors-dexercices-aux-emirats.html

This two journalist was present at the same French MOD Press Report
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/defense/votre_espace/journalistes/points_presse/point_presse_du_ministere_de_la_defense_du_17_decembre_2009

To resume the Rafale participation at ATLC from the french MOD

Rafale (ADA) vs Typhoon (RAF): 4-0 for Rafale, with degraded AA weaponry. 3-1 for Rafale, with much more degraded AA weaponry.

Rafale vs F-22: 1-0 for the F22 in six match.

Rafales also have performed SEAD missions and were able to detect missile sites that had not been detected by F-16CJs.

Rafale have demonstrated its multirole capabilities by simulating the launch of 6 Sagem AASM on as many targets and firing 3 MICA AA missiles within one minute.

The Rafale famed OSF was able to “silently” detect targets at up to 40 KM (24 NM).

UK MOD is absent about the ATLC exercice and US MOD just about F22 versus F16 and M2000 of EAU Air Army. Consequently i can't confirm the French MOD result.

Sorry for my english.

Just out of curiosity, why are the only *journalistic* reports from 2 *famous and impartial* French journalists? No American, British, Saudi, UAE, Pakistani reporters allowed to see it or have access to any type results? Personally, I don't think the French are impartial about anything NOT French.

Beazz

I agree with you, i wish an other point of view about this exercice and not only from my government. Where are the UK and US report about ATLC ? Nevertheless i don't think that French MOD broad wrong informations about their allies.

So how can you have 6 engagements between the Rafale and F-22 and have only one confirmed victory for the Raptor and none for the Rafale. What happened during the other 5 times, nothing!?

PhillyGuy wrote:

So how can you have 6 engagements between the Rafale and F-22 and have only one confirmed victory for the Raptor and none for the Rafale. What happened during the other 5 times, nothing!?

I dont know, like you i'm surprised about the confrontation with the Rafale and the F22.
I want to know more about the scenario.

Maybe during the 6 matchs between F22 and Rafale, Rafale's objectives was A2G missions with F22 in defense.

On paper the Tiffy is a bit (not far) superior than the Raffy in A2A scenario (wing load, t/w ratio, turn rate.. at least i ever read so), so i can just suppose that French Pilots are better trained than English.

Hello, two confirmations from two french pilot blog. I know I know its not impartial, you're right. But they give more informations.

In english in the text. http://richard.feeser.over-blog.com/article-the-best--41382541-comments.html#c

And the last blog from a pilot who has fight in Afghanistan with Rafale fighter.

In date of 27 november, he has writing a preview of the result.

Quote:

Half of the prestigious Hunting 01,007 Squadron Provence has made the trip to the United Arab Emirates during the year ATLP
This exercise brings together international combat aircraft the most prestigious. To name a few: The Eurofighter "Typhoon", the F22 "Raptor" and ... Rafale.
I can not remain silent any longer my pleasure : Pilots who are out there demonstrating the capabilities of the French flagship aircraft, wears really high the colors of France, winning magnificent victories against other nations.
I give here more details next week! : --

http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2009/11/27/154660-atlc

In date of 19 december 2009 he write.

Quote:

The participation of six combat aircraft Rafale F3 recent Air Tactical Leadership Course (DPAC) held in United Arab Emirates from November 15 to December 9 was a "total success". "We have full board" ensures Lt. Colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commander of the squadron 1 / 7 Provence (Saint-Dizier).

Quote:

The French fighter aircraft also rubbed the F-22, the most modern fighter of the USAF. During a meeting, they have clashed six times, F-22 put only one shoot on goal.

http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2009/12/19/158245-atlc-linterview-du-commandant-de-lescadron-de-chasse-01007-provence[/quote]

dalius wrote:

I dont know, like you i'm surprised about the confrontation with the Rafale and the F22.
I want to know more about the scenario.

Maybe during the 6 matchs between F22 and Rafale, Rafale's objectives was A2G missions with F22 in defense.

I was leaning more towards the Rafale or Raptor hitting the deck, or some other type of training rule violation that knocked off those other engagements before anyone could die.

I'll throw in my $0.02 cents.

I find it interesting that the results are not for public eyes and the various participating countries are relatively quiet about it with just a short interview given by the 27th FS CC Lt Col Pilch and short official articles that the USAF participated.

Yet we see various French "sources" eagerly writing about the results and SURPRISE, it looks good for their Rafale. BUT, there seems to be so many unsubstantiated stats made by unsubstantiated and unconfirmed "sources" that if all of this was brought up in a court of law, a judge would throw it all out for heresy.

The quote by Phillyguy is very true and should make everybody think and raise an eyebrow.

Six engagements and a 1-0 result in favor of the Raptor?

Please.

sextusempiricus wrote:

From everything I've read, the Rafale may indeed, currently, be a superior AA platform than the Tiffy

Would like to see those sources, and hope they are not French.

sextusempiricus wrote:

Remember that in order to get their aircraft relatively early, after a 20-year development program, the Tiffy partner countries split their buys into tranches. Tranche 1 and 2, which are the aircraft currently fielded, are not at all what the Tiffy was supposed to be or could be, with severely limited capabilities compared to comparable fighters currently in service. The lack of AESA, which is something Rafale currently suffers from as well […]

Development time has little to do with both aircraft capabilities. Their development scope was different and the typhoon had more partners, manufacturers and infra structures to coordinate with.
BTW the fighters are not toothless without AESA, the Euros CAPTOR is the fastest mech array in the world and like AESA it can do both AG and AA simultaneously and has long range capabilities. So I don’t know where you get the impression the Typhoon is toothless. BTW currently the captor on the Eurofighter vastly outranges the RBE2 of the Rafale.

AESA for the EF will inclue a range increment, integrated ECM and ECCM features and faster refresh. That’s the difference.

sextusempiricus wrote:

The lack of AESA, which is something Rafale currently suffers from as well, is a huge deficit, especially if you consider that some F-15Cs, the F/A-18E/F, and the F-16E/F all have it, not to mention the F-22. That means that BVR, the Tiffy gets smoked by all of the above mentioned

You must be kidding right? Are you talking about an Eurofighter or an Alfa jet? The Eurofighters capabilities beat the living daylight out every F-16 variant regardless. The falcon just isn’t a match at all.
EF has similar electronic and BVR capabilities as the Super bug but is much faster and more agile and has better T/W ratio. It will also supersede all F-15’s not upgraded with APG 63V3, wich constitutes 90% of the fleet at BVR (it will still be competitive with those and have first shot capability with the meteor) and beats them all at WVR regardless of the version.

sextusempiricus wrote:

Finally, all indications are that, currently, Rafale's optronics and its ESM gear are far better than anything in the Tiffy. Taking into account significant doubts as to whether Tiffy's Tranche 3 capabilities will ever materialize

The optical devices actual ranges are figures highly classified, where are you getting this info from?
Tranche 3 has no “if” as it is necessary to replace AG aircraft, and its biggest difference wont be the radar, but true multirole capability.

sextusempiricus wrote:

Rafale is currently the better all-around fighter

Its true the Rafale has better mission multirole capabilities…for now.

sextusempiricus wrote:

There is no doubt that if I were shopping for a fighter, I'd get the Rafale over the Typhoon, although I would still go for an AESA-equipped F-16, F-15 or F-18. However, if Rafale ever fields an AESA, it will be a superior platform to everything out there with the possible exception of the F-35 (and F-22, of course, but that is not in the market). Rafale's Achilles' heel is its cost, which is huge, considering that France went at it alone, unlike Tiffy and F-35, both of which had a hell of a lot more resources to play with and a lot more countries involved. Nevertheless, when you consider that very fact, that France developed and fielded this magnificent fighter all on its own, it is an enormous accomplishment of which France should be rightly proud. Now, I only hope it is better than that POS Peugeot, hands-down the worse car I've ever driven...

You are seriously misguided. Rafale has currently a PESA radar. Being AESA’s doesnt imply range advantages over PESA. Its main new features are ECM and ECCM, LPI, and target discrimination. Actually PESA’s have typically higher output power capability than AESA equivalent. What the French are trying to do with their new AESA is to have those features without decreasing range compared to PESA. So expect modest range increment, if at all.
French export publicity is already mentioning it to have 55km against the RCS similar to that of an F-16 or Mirage F-1 wich is hardly impressive. The mech Captor is more than twice that.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22's at Dubai