Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

I have scoured the forums, and having become reasonably certain that no one has already posted on this, I shall proceed. In my long hours of high school biology, I took the time to read the entirety of the defense appropriations bill for FY 2010, and was shocked to see some interesting information requiring the Secretary of Defense to evaluate the feasability of an exportable Raptor.

SECTION-1250: REPORT ON POTENTIAL FOREIGN MILITARY SALES OF THE F–22A FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

(A) REPORT REQUIRED: Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall, in coordination with the Secretary of State and in consultation with the Secretary of the Air Force, submit to the congressional defense committees, the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate, and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives a report on potential foreign military sales of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(B) ELEMENTS: The report required by subsection shall include the following:

(1) An estimate of the costs to the United States Government, industry, and any foreign military sales customer of developing an exportable version of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(2) An assessment whether an exportable version of the F–22A fighter aircraft is technically feasible and executable, and, if so, a timeline for achieving an exportable version of the aircraft.

(3) An assessment of the potential strategic implications of permitting foreign military sales of the F-22A fighter aircraft.

(4) An identification of any modifications to current law that are required to authorize foreign military sales of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(C) ADDITIONAL REPORT REQUIRED: The Secretary of Defense shall enter into an agreement with a federally funded research and development center to submit, not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, to the committees identified in subsection (a), through the Secretary of Defense, a report on the impact of foreign military sales of the F-22A fighter aircraft on the United States aerospace and aviation industry, and the advantages and disadvantages of such sales for sustaining that industry."

Both the House of Representives and the Senate have also passed the H.R. 3326 (Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2010) on 30 July 2009 and 6 October 2009 respectively which will be consider by the House and Senate conference and will then be presented to the President for his signature contained the following section:

"SECTION-8056: None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of the F-22A advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government: Provided, That the Department of Defense may conduct or participate in studies, research, design and other activities to define and develop a future export version of the F-22A that protects classified and sensitive information, technologies and U.S. war fighting capabilities."

This evaluation would be required within 180 days of the signing of the bill into law, or in other words, April 25th, 2010. In your guys' opinions, what are the liklihoods of this happening, and what would this mean for the F-35?

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npeterman18 wrote:

I have scoured the forums, and having become reasonably certain that no one has already posted on this, I shall proceed. In my long hours of high school biology, I took the time to read the entirety of the defense appropriations bill for FY 2010, and was shocked to see some interesting information requiring the Secretary of Defense to evaluate the feasability of an exportable Raptor.

SECTION-1250: REPORT ON POTENTIAL FOREIGN MILITARY SALES OF THE F–22A FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

(A) REPORT REQUIRED: Not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall, in coordination with the Secretary of State and in consultation with the Secretary of the Air Force, submit to the congressional defense committees, the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate, and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives a report on potential foreign military sales of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(B) ELEMENTS: The report required by subsection shall include the following:

(1) An estimate of the costs to the United States Government, industry, and any foreign military sales customer of developing an exportable version of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(2) An assessment whether an exportable version of the F–22A fighter aircraft is technically feasible and executable, and, if so, a timeline for achieving an exportable version of the aircraft.

(3) An assessment of the potential strategic implications of permitting foreign military sales of the F-22A fighter aircraft.

(4) An identification of any modifications to current law that are required to authorize foreign military sales of the F–22A fighter aircraft.

(C) ADDITIONAL REPORT REQUIRED: The Secretary of Defense shall enter into an agreement with a federally funded research and development center to submit, not later than 180 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, to the committees identified in subsection (a), through the Secretary of Defense, a report on the impact of foreign military sales of the F-22A fighter aircraft on the United States aerospace and aviation industry, and the advantages and disadvantages of such sales for sustaining that industry."

Both the House of Representives and the Senate have also passed the H.R. 3326 (Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2010) on 30 July 2009 and 6 October 2009 respectively which will be consider by the House and Senate conference and will then be presented to the President for his signature contained the following section:

"SECTION-8056: None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of the F-22A advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government: Provided, That the Department of Defense may conduct or participate in studies, research, design and other activities to define and develop a future export version of the F-22A that protects classified and sensitive information, technologies and U.S. war fighting capabilities."

This evaluation would be required within 180 days of the signing of the bill into law, or in other words, April 25th, 2010. In your guys' opinions, what are the liklihoods of this happening, and what would this mean for the F-35?

Wow. Nice find dude. Personally I don't wish to see the F22 exported. However, if by coming up with some BS to feed our brain dead politicians they could keep the F22 line open, thereby keeping the option of the US actually getting more of them I am all for it. Shouldn't be to hard to completely BS every politician in Washington from that fool President Hussein right on down to the most junior congressman. Not one of them has an IQ over 4.

Beazz

IF it happens (and many of us in Marietta hope it will) it'll be a stripped down version of the Raptor.

Any exported F-22's should have a secret hidden 10lbs. of explosives lining the cockpit that can only be activated by the President with a remote button. Let's call it Order Sixty Six. Twisted Evil

Last edited by strykerxo on Nov 18, 2009 - 02:43 AM; edited 1 time in total

Do the rumers of the up-coming first flight of PAK-FA and the recent revelation of a Chinese 5th generation AC arriving sooner than later, going to effect support for continuing the Raptors production line?

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... %20Fighter

Sorry, but the continued production of the F-22 is dead.

What is the likelihood? Your guess is probably at least as good as mine, npeterman. If it has better than a snowball’s chance, however, then Beazz’ observation regarding this govt’s intelligence is absolutely correct, most tragically, except that Beazz’ rating no doubt refers to our govt’s COMBINED intelligence level.

Here are two questions that lie far beyond our govt’s comprehension, no doubt:

Why would our country spend a gozillion dollars developing an air superiority platform that will be beyond anyone else’s capability for perhaps as long as two decades, only to give away all those advantages to someone who might re-sell component technologies to potential adversaries? There is a long history of cases where this kind of thing actually occurred. Where’s the learning?

Why would any govt. be stupid enough to buy “stripped down” but incredibly expensive F-22’s when it could buy much less expensive “stripped down” F-22’s (i.e. F-35’s)? Besides, the F-35 offers deep-striking capabilities that the F-22 does not. It makes sense to do so only if a govt. can buy a very small number of F-22’s for the obvious purpose of reverse-engineering whatever it can. Given the plane’s enormous cost per unit, I’m sure the US govt. will understand if buying countries plead the poverty case as the ostensible reason for a small purchase quantity. What is obviously beyond our govt’s comprehension is the real reason for such purchases.

It is understandable, and even forgivable, if the average forum poster cannot comprehend the consequences of exporting the F-22. If the US Govt cannot comprehend the potential danger, however, that is absolutely incomprehensible, and never forgivable.

strykerxo wrote:

Do the rumers of the up-coming first flight of PAK-FA and the recent revelation of a Chinese 5th generation AC arriving sooner than later, going to effect support for continuing the Raptors production line?

Too little, too late. Congress has already passed the 2010 Defense Authorization Bill. In order to protect their share of pork projects, they accepted the White House's insistence that the F-22 production line be closed - and once its closed, it'll be closed for good. The cost of recreating tooling and requalifying the manufacturing processes will ensure that. Sorry, the Raptor production story is over.

Besides, if you look past the hype at what the PAK-FA and J-XX are expected to have under the hood - they are going to be nowhere near the capabilities of the Raptor. The F-35 should be able to handle either airplane quite handily.

In all likelihood, yeah, we'll be done here in two [Link pending approval] nearly 25 years of doing this type of work and being around the govt/ military I've learned that most anything is possible. So it's not really over until it's [Link pending approval] even then it doesn't have to mean forever. Only time will tell.

When you have a Sec Def that say it's useless because it cannot fight the Taliban (I feel like self exploding every time I think about it), and a President who know jack and S about military matters, it seems pretty over, unfortunately.

I [Link pending approval] never made sense to me why people gave that statement any credence. As far as I know the Taliban doesn't have a navy either but we're still going ahead with high priced and new navy projects.

Well, If some foreign buyer, like for instance South Korea in the third phase of their competition, could be found, at least the aircraft would remain in production. This would at least give the US some flexibility to resume production if the global situation changes(like if Pak-fa materializes), or an administration change (not that I am stating a political view, I've seen how nasty y'all can get). I just think that having another 5th-gen production line, as a potential fall back should the F-35 fail (which I'm not implying will happen, I've seen how nasty folks get about that too). It just seems to me that terminating the F-22, before its full capabilities have been necesarily discovered, may be somewhat shortsighted. When one looks at a Block 60 Viper and the initial LWF concept, no one can deny that there has been an incredible evolution. Imagine if that kind of evolution could be experienced by a lengthy run of Raptors...

On the flip side, the stop of Raptor production may have some benefits over a continued and larger fleet. By having a larger F-35 fleet, maintenance costs may be lowered by greater standardization. Likewise, opportunities to operate with our similarly armed allies may increase when compared to the F-22. Also, the F-22 may end up being able to function in a capacity similar to what the Soviets envisioned of the MiG-31 and Su-30 (back before it became a multi-role platform). The two may end up becoming eminent;y compatable without large numbers of Raptors.

All I can say is that they are both fantastic aircraft, and the USAF isnt going to be anihilated in some future war because it didn't recieve an additional 60 F-22As

NKP

vegasdave901 wrote:

Any exported F-22's should have a secret hidden 10lbs. of explosives lining the cockpit that can only be activated by the President with a remote button. Let's call it Order Sixty Six. Twisted Evil

Nooo!!!

You've just mentioned a most highly classified feature should an export Raptor ever be built! *Note: It's actually 20lbs of explosives to ensure destruction.*

How could you?!?

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

vegasdave901 wrote:

Any exported F-22's should have a secret hidden 10lbs. of explosives lining the cockpit that can only be activated by the President with a remote button. Let's call it Order Sixty Six. Twisted Evil

Nooo!!!

You've just mentioned a most highly classified feature should an export Raptor ever be built! *Note: It's actually 20lbs of explosives to ensure destruction.*

How could you?!?

Personally, I find it absolutely beyond belief that the US does not have some type of *chip* installed in all this high tech military hardware we sell to some of the most *questionable* nations on the planet to disable whatever it is we sell them if it somehow was used against us or our allies? These weapons systems are so technical and full of electronis that no one but us actually knows what it is all for that there is no way anyone could ever possibly know it was there.

Beazz

A few counter-points to commonly 'overstated' F-22 vs F-35 claims, if I may:

Quote:

Why would our country spend a gozillion dollars developing an air superiority platform that will be beyond anyone else’s capability for perhaps as long as two decades

Are you referring to Increment 3.2, possibly becoming squadron-level IOC around 2015-2016? I'm sorry, but given the rapidly changing threat matrix going forward - one much more unpredictable and troubling than was estimated even 2-5 yrs ago, let alone 10 - to confidently assume all 85 of them as such (block 35 capable) will simply remain dominant (in quality and quantity) through 2030, etc, is at best, sketchy and unsound Defense acquisition policy making. Many will assess such attitude as borderlining on reckless.

Quote:

to give away all those advantages to someone who might re-sell component technologies to potential adversaries?

So let hypothetical 'customers' develop/integrate indigenous components, a la F-15J and F-15I? Or include F-35/SuperHornet/-15SG/-16 block60 type components? If such customers are willing to pay R&D costs, why not?

Quote:

Why would any govt. be stupid enough to buy “stripped down” but incredibly expensive F-22’s

A re-fitted F-22 including foreign sourced RAM possibly, would still be a most superior air-dominance/strike deterrence money could buy. An FY2012 'Export' order could even be on par, price wise (perhaps within 10%), compared to F-35.

Quote:

the F-35 offers deep-striking capabilities that the F-22 does not.

Excuse you? A Super Hornet armed with JASSM-ER will 'offer' deep-striking too, but regarding the above often confused issue, yes, there are some Attack capabilities an F-35 block IV/V can reportedly offer superior to anticipated F-22 block 35, but then again there are some Attack/Strike capabilities the F-22 should be able to employ, more superior to that even by F-35.

Quote:

Given the plane’s enormous cost per unit,

What would an 'Export' FMS F-22 Unit Procurement Cost be, placed in FY11-12?? That would be an interesting question, no doubt. Perhaps within 10%, maybe 15% of an F-35 block III Unit Procurement Price? Why not let potential customers analyze the cost-effectiveness and deterrence value and not decide for them?

Anyway, regarding the whole 'Tooling' issue vis-a-vis Defense Authorization, perhaps we can't count that as dead yet.

Good thread, npeterman18 Thumb

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 for export?