Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Quote:

WrightWing
I'm just trying to understand why an arbitrary decision to use a less powerful motor, that might not last as long at its tuning, would be made though.

It's been tried before - I vaguely remember an offer of selling an F-16 with the F-4 Phantoms J-79 engine. Oh wait here's a link http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article12.html Doh

No one purchased any, but they tried it!

Quote:

Wrightwing
An F-15 on the other hand, with 2 engines rated at 32,500-35,000lbs of thrust would peel your eyelids back.

It would indeed (I feel the same way about the F-14 Tomcat)! Thumb

An F-22 with F100 or F110 and a different radar set (the Super Hornet's APG-79 AESA radar perhaps?) would make an interesting (if mythical) "export Raptor". Shrug

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1. F-22 with PW F100 or GE F110!?! Why?

2. I doubt a Raptor with F110 or F100 engines would be able to out perform an F-15 with the same engines.

3. Why would you 'push the limits' of the F110 or F100 to make more than 32K of thrust? The key to the motor is longevity and reliability. Both the F110 and F100 were (or are) producing 32K in advanced models. (F110-GE-132/F100-PW-232) The PW-232 was actually tested up to 37K during a test, but at that thrust would have not lasted as long as the new PW-229 EEPs entering service.

4. An 'export' aka 'lame' Raptor would not sell, but an equally priced F-15SE would.

My Two Cents

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

1. F-22 with PW F100 or GE F110!?! Why?

My thought exactly.

F-16/J79 anyone?

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

4. An 'export' aka 'lame' Raptor would not sell

I agree, it'd be kinda like a customer buying a supercar without the supercar engine but instead with a 1.3 litre family car engine and powertrain under the bonnet instead, in other words pointless and powerless.

Great istantaneus turn rate, good range, internal payload better than F-15SE (and F-35 in case of A2A), Avionics could be upgraded at F-35 - standards (this would also unlock development of das-like and eots-like tools for Raptor as well as HMD and 9X), good sealthiness (near F-35/F-15SE level).
Would be nice for some one.. but too little difference with F-15SE

Lightndattic wrote:

F-16/J79 anyone?

The F-22 isn't being exported, and the J79 didn't result in the loss in performance that an F-22/F100/F110 combo would result in. It'd be a major step backwards.

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

1. F-22 with PW F100 or GE F110!?! Why?

2. I doubt a Raptor with F110 or F100 engines would be able to out perform an F-15 with the same engines.

3. Why would you 'push the limits' of the F110 or F100 to make more than 32K of thrust? The key to the motor is longevity and reliability. Both the F110 and F100 were (or are) producing 32K in advanced models. (F110-GE-132/F100-PW-232) The PW-232 was actually tested up to 37K during a test, but at that thrust would have not lasted as long as the new PW-229 EEPs entering service.

4. An 'export' aka 'lame' Raptor would not sell, but an equally priced F-15SE would.

My Two Cents

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

Sorry, I wanted a debate on the merits of the F-22 equipped with 4th Generation Engines. Because China and Russia are likely to use similar powerplants in there forthcoming 5th Gen Designs. (i.e. PAK-FA & J-XX)

Russia is years behind and will at least initially use the S117. With China likely using a model of its WS-10A. Both of which are much closer in design and performance of the F100 or F110 Series than the F119.

So, I've been perplexed with some that claim the Russian or Chinese 5th Generation examples could possibly hope to match the F-22??? Confused

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

1. F-22 with PW F100 or GE F110!?! Why?

2. I doubt a Raptor with F110 or F100 engines would be able to out perform an F-15 with the same engines.

3. Why would you 'push the limits' of the F110 or F100 to make more than 32K of thrust? The key to the motor is longevity and reliability. Both the F110 and F100 were (or are) producing 32K in advanced models. (F110-GE-132/F100-PW-232) The PW-232 was actually tested up to 37K during a test, but at that thrust would have not lasted as long as the new PW-229 EEPs entering service.

4. An 'export' aka 'lame' Raptor would not sell, but an equally priced F-15SE would.

My Two Cents

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

Well, wouldn't the PAK-FA equipped with S-117's. Offer similar performance to a F-22 equipped with F100-PW-232's??? Idea

Corsair1963 wrote:

Well, wouldn't the PAK-FA equipped with S-117's. Offer similar performance to a F-22 equipped with F100-PW-232's??? Idea

I would think so; considering they'll be 'pushing the limits' of what that engine could do when designed.

Your statement above is why I doubt the Russians will be able to back the claims of 'meeting or exceeding' the Raptor's performance. It would need to be much lighter than it's US counterpart and the Russians have always lagged in composites and advanced alloys.

Two Cents

TEG

Re the F-119, I recall watching a video of a F-22 demo and as the Raptor was taking off, the guy narrating to the crowd just happened to mention that each engine generated 37,500lbs. of thrust. I thought that was probably more realistic than the 35K claimed in the brochures.

LOL... Corsair, I have to hand it to you, bless your soul... you've tried so hard and been so patient with everyone while asking about 14x times in polite and direct ways: if the F-22 airframe could be pushed through the air (at any altitude) at supercruise speeds employing a 32.5k lb class turbo fan?!?

Good question first of all. (to save time, you can just read the brief para below for my short answer).

Flat out, I'd say yes. No, perhaps for not as long as the f-119 (e.g. the alt engine's core might not be tuned as such, for extended hot runs... if I understand the lingo or engineering correctly)... and no, definitely not at the same speed, but if perhaps a clean running F-22 (A2A loaded, 6+2) could hit even around M1.15 at what, 35-40k', that would be impressive and give an absolute advantage in and of itself imo, over most if not all 4.5+ counterparts (as well as in strike capacities).

I could understand if a foreign ally would actively seek even that capability.

As for my ideological stance on this whole F-22 export position is concerned, I've been and remain in support of it... for both perceived geopolitical and various strategic reasons.

I mean, especially... if a couple of potential customers were willing to cover the R&D, the whole argument alone of: 'oh no, it will cost too much and take too long, etc' goes out the window?

As a specific example: I'd contemplate Neno's proposal of possibly integrating most of F-35s block III avionics (perhaps minus EODAS at first) and even much of the cockpit into the the F-22 frame, apply foreign customers RAM and let's say P&W's F100-PW-232 with 3D TVC (jointly developed to maturity with foreign investment), as a perfectly acceptable, high-end, 1st-tier ally export alternative for the long-term.

Despite my support for F-15SE+ development... F-22E's range, cruise speed and maneuvering would be greater than F-15SE, given increased fuel capacity and aerodynamic, clean config (note: F-15SE would sacrifice range with internal weapons carriage in lieu of fuel). At least frontal and side aspect RCS of the F-22E should be lower as well (even with 3D nozzled F100 and foreign RAM).

What would be at least one enhanced offshoot interest of this established, promoted 33k lb class production though, could be justification for numerous remaining, life-extended legacy F-15 and F-16 (expected to remain relevant and deter until the mid-20s) to upgrade to the common powerplant (either with or w/o TVC) as an option (especially for F-16 block 50/52+ and USAF F-15C-E)?

geogen wrote:

LOL... Corsair, I have to hand it to you, bless your soul... you've tried so hard and been so patient with everyone while asking about 14x times in polite and direct ways: if the F-22 airframe could be pushed through the air (at any altitude) at supercruise speeds employing a 32.5k lb class turbo fan?!?

Good question first of all. (to save time, you can just read the brief para below for my short answer).

Flat out, I'd say yes. No, perhaps for not as long as the f-119 (e.g. the alt engine's core might not be tuned as such, for extended hot runs... if I understand the lingo or engineering correctly)... and no, definitely not at the same speed, but if perhaps a clean running F-22 (A2A loaded, 6+2) could hit even around M1.15 at what, 35-40k', that would be impressive and give an absolute advantage in and of itself imo, over most if not all 4.5+ counterparts (as well as in strike capacities).

I could understand if a foreign ally would actively seek even that capability.

As for my ideological stance on this whole F-22 export position is concerned, I've been and remain in support of it... for both perceived geopolitical and various strategic reasons.

I mean, especially... if a couple of potential customers were willing to cover the R&D, the whole argument alone of: 'oh no, it will cost too much and take too long, etc' goes out the window?

As a specific example: I'd contemplate Neno's proposal of possibly integrating most of F-35s block III avionics (perhaps minus EODAS at first) and even much of the cockpit into the the F-22 frame, apply foreign customers RAM and let's say P&W's F100-PW-232 with 3D TVC (jointly developed to maturity with foreign investment), as a perfectly acceptable, high-end, 1st-tier ally export alternative for the long-term.

Despite my support for F-15SE+ development... F-22E's range, cruise speed and maneuvering would be greater than F-15SE, given increased fuel capacity and aerodynamic, clean config (note: F-15SE would sacrifice range with internal weapons carriage in lieu of fuel). At least frontal and side aspect RCS of the F-22E should be lower as well (even with 3D nozzled F100 and foreign RAM).

What would be at least one enhanced offshoot interest of this established, promoted 33k lb class production though, could be justification for numerous remaining, life-extended legacy F-15 and F-16 (expected to remain relevant and deter until the mid-20s) to upgrade to the common powerplant (either with or w/o TVC) as an option (especially for F-16 block 50/52+ and USAF F-15C-E)?

Your export F-22 sound like a good solution to me. If, it wasn't for the fact that the F-22 Program has already been killed. Plus, the fact the "out cry" of a less capable export F-22. That many countries would claim if such a proposal came forth. Regardless, I think its a great idea and to bad that it was put forth years ago!

As for the thread my only point was to examine the performance differences between the F100/F110's and the F119's in the same platform. Plus, how using older designs would impact the performance of 5th Generation Types like the F-22 and PAK-FA.

Clearly, a 35,000 lbs thrust F-119 is going to have better high altitude super cruise performance. Than an F100 making the same power.......

popcorn wrote:

Re the F-119, I recall watching a video of a F-22 demo and as the Raptor was taking off, the guy narrating to the crowd just happened to mention that each engine generated 37,500lbs. of thrust. I thought that was probably more realistic than the 35K claimed in the brochures.

I believe the current number for the F119 is 39,000 lbs of thrust each in full afterburner.

Corsair1963 wrote:

If, the F-22 was equipped with either F100's or F110's. How would it compare to the current F-22 with F119's? Would it loose its ability to "Super Cruise" for [Link pending approval] Confused

current GE F110 engine and the PW F100 are around 24000lbs dry thurst and both with full afterburner are apporox at what the PW F119 is at on military power so by down grading the F22 to either engine the F22 would not be able to super cruise now here is something to think about a clean F15c at full afterburner its max speed is mach [Link pending approval] with the PW F100 just think what i would be able to hit with PW F119

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 equipped with P & W F100's or GE F110's?