Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

If, the F-22 was equipped with either F100's or F110's. How would it compare to the current F-22 with F119's? Would it loose its ability to "Super Cruise" for example..... Confused

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yes,i think it will,as well as its supermaneuverability

Esdras wrote:

yes,i think it will,as well as its supermaneuverability

Let's not forget the current F119 makes ~35,000 lbs in the F-22A. While, the F110-GE-132 makes 32,500 lbs in the F-16 Blk 60.

Regardless, before everyone jumps down my throat. I am not claiming either of the designs (F100 or F110) are the equal of the F119. Just wondering if a similar powered engine could be sufficient if need be???

(Really need T.E.G. to comment on this) Offhand sounds like a repeat of the F-14A underpowered Pratt & Whitney TF-30's (what a difference from Pratt's current engines). Even with the F-22's internal weapon bays, I find it difficult to believe it could supercruise with "legacy" engines. But it's an interesting question, and some F-14, F-15, F-16 were juuuust on the verge of supercruising "clean", not to mention the Eurofighter Typhoon claims supercruise capability so I'm curious to see where this thread goes......

FlightDreamz wrote:

(Really need T.E.G. to comment on this) Offhand sounds like a repeat of the F-14A underpowered Pratt & Whitney TF-30's (what a difference from Pratt's current engines). Even with the F-22's internal weapon bays, I find it difficult to believe it could supercruise with "legacy" engines. But it's an interesting question, and some F-14, F-15, F-16 were juuuust on the verge of supercruising "clean", not to mention the Eurofighter Typhoon claims supercruise capability so I'm curious to see where this thread goes......

I look forward to hearing TEG views on the subject! Really, this thread has two parts. Which, I will elaborate on later....... Wink

VERY INTERESTING

BTW I believe the F-14D could "Super Cruise" with 4-Sparrow! (i.e. Super Sonic @ Maximum Military Power)

Last edited by em745 on Nov 17, 2009 - 10:28 AM; edited 2 times in total

At the risk of coming off as a total idiot, I'll throw in my two (canadian) cents on the matter... just for the heck of it (and coz I'm bored and have nothing else to do Razz

).

Corsair1963 wrote:

If, the F-22 was equipped with either F100's or F110's. How would it compare to the current F-22 with F119's? Would it loose its ability to "Super Cruise" for example..... Confused

It's VERY likely the F-22 would lose much of its supercruising prowess.

Supercruising (or any sustained high-Mach flight) depends as much on (if not more so) on an engine's exhaust velocity as the actual thrust number. Turbojets (0% bypass) have the advantage over turbofans in this area, especially in high-altitude, low-oxygen air. The F119's (with a bypass ratio--or BPR of around 0.2, I think) are as close to "leaky turbojets" as you're likely to come across in "fighter" turbofans. The F119's core is also tuned to run hotter, again, further increasing exhaust velocity. In short, the F119's are "factory tuned" to operate at high Mach/hi altitude in mil power. That's their comfort zone, if you will.

When you increase a turbofan's bypass ratio, you improve fuel burn and max (wet) thrust at lower altitudes, but you also lower overall exhaust velocity, esp. in mil power. This NOT what you want if your aim is to produce a high performance supercruiser.

Not sure what the BPR's are on the "legacy" engines, but they're probably in the 0.35-0.5 range, typical of most turbofans used in fighters. (FWIW, the Tiffy's EJ200's BPR is 0.4 .)

Corsair1963 wrote:

Let's not forget the current F119 makes ~35,000 lbs

That's their official "thrust class" rating. It's like saying a 38-year old is in his mid-30's.

I've seen (seemingly) credible online claims of ~37,800 per.

FlightDreamz wrote:

Offhand sounds like a repeat of the F-14A underpowered Pratt & Whitney TF-30's (what a difference from Pratt's current engines)

The TF-30/Tomcat "A" was probably THE WORST engine/airframe matchup in military aviation history.

BTW, had the "D" model kept its variable intake ramps active, it probably could've topped out at Mach 2.6+.

FlightDreamz wrote:

not to mention the Eurofighter Typhoon claims supercruise capability so I'm curious to see where this thread goes......

And I'M curious to see how fast, how high, AND FOR HOW LONG! a Tiffy can (ahem) "supercruise" Rolling Eyes

with 8 AAM's hanging under it.

em745 wrote:

And I'M curious to see how fast, how high, AND FOR HOW LONG! a Tiffy can (ahem) "supercruise" Rolling Eyes

with 8 AAM's hanging under it.

Me too, my guess would be a few minutes low mach number (perhaps M1.2) supercruise at most.
/The jet seems totally overhyped for what it is./

Quote:

Corsair1963
I believe the F-14D could "Super Cruise" with 4-Sparrow! (i.e. Super Sonic @ Maximum Military Power)

Makes sense the way the Tomcat had those missiles mounted conformally (sic) as does the F-15. I have an Aviation Week & Space Technology that documents a F-14 supercruising over Long Island sound before Northrop brought Grumman and closed the Bethpage & Calverton plants. But I'm pretty sure that was clean (they even removed the Television Camera Site to lower drag http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/tcs/index.html if my memory serves me correctly

Quote:

Em745
And I'M curious to see how fast, how high, AND FOR HOW LONG! a Tiffy can (ahem) "supercruise" with 8 AAM's hanging under it.

LOL! As am I Em & Shep1978! Well remember I did say "claims supercruise" (I'm desperately trying to break myself of posting claims I can't back up)! Doh

Oh and Em if you think a F-14D with variable ramps would have been something, I read somewhere (no documentation of it at present - sorry) that the Navy explored the idea of a "Tomcat 2000" with F119 engines, now THAT would've gone like a bat out of hell! I think the Navy was trying to recoup some of the money they invested in the ATF (later to become the F-22). <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Tomcat-Grumman-Paul-T-Gillcrist/dp/0887406645/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258425666&sr=8-1">Tomcat! The Grumman F-14 Story by Paul T. Gillcrist </a> mentions the Tomcat 21 in chapter 32, but it just mentions "new engines" not the type (DRAT)!

Corsair1963 wrote:

If, the F-22 was equipped with either F100's or F110's. How would it compare to the current F-22 with F119's? Would it loose its ability to "Super Cruise" for example..... Confused

Well it'd lose about 15-20,000lbs of thrust, so I'm not really sure how it could possibly be a good change.

The F-119s are more like 39,000lb thrust ea, and depending on which F100/F110, you'd have between 29,000-32,500lb of thrust.

wrightwing wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

If, the F-22 was equipped with either F100's or F110's. How would it compare to the current F-22 with F119's? Would it loose its ability to "Super Cruise" for example..... Confused

Well it'd lose about 15-20,000lbs of thrust, so I'm not really sure how it could possibly be a good change.

The F-119s are more like 39,000lb thrust ea, and depending on which F100/F110, you'd have between 29,000-32,500lb of thrust.

Oh, I am sure it would be a good change. Just trying to understand the impact on performance....

BTW I am sure we could get more thrust out of both the F100 or F110. If, true could a F110 with 35,000 lbs. Provide near F119 performance in the F-22A???

Corsair1963 wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

If, the F-22 was equipped with either F100's or F110's. How would it compare to the current F-22 with F119's? Would it loose its ability to "Super Cruise" for example..... Confused

Well it'd lose about 15-20,000lbs of thrust, so I'm not really sure how it could possibly be a good change.

The F-119s are more like 39,000lb thrust ea, and depending on which F100/F110, you'd have between 29,000-32,500lb of thrust.

Oh, I am sure it would be a good change. Just trying to understand the impact on performance....

BTW I am sure we could get more thrust out of both the F100 or F110. If, true could a F110 with 35,000 lbs. Provide near F119 performance in the F-22A???

I think they've even gotten more out of them than that, but what does that do to the durability of the motor though, compared with the F119?

wrightwing wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

If, the F-22 was equipped with either F100's or F110's. How would it compare to the current F-22 with F119's? Would it loose its ability to "Super Cruise" for example..... Confused

Well it'd lose about 15-20,000lbs of thrust, so I'm not really sure how it could possibly be a good change.

The F-119s are more like 39,000lb thrust ea, and depending on which F100/F110, you'd have between 29,000-32,500lb of thrust.

Oh, I am sure it would be a good change. Just trying to understand the impact on performance....

BTW I am sure we could get more thrust out of both the F100 or F110. If, true could a F110 with 35,000 lbs. Provide near F119 performance in the F-22A???

I think they've even gotten more out of them than that, but what does that do to the durability of the motor though, compared with the F119?

Well, to some countries that may not be such a big issue...............

Corsair1963 wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

Corsair1963 wrote:

If, the F-22 was equipped with either F100's or F110's. How would it compare to the current F-22 with F119's? Would it loose its ability to "Super Cruise" for example..... Confused

Well it'd lose about 15-20,000lbs of thrust, so I'm not really sure how it could possibly be a good change.

The F-119s are more like 39,000lb thrust ea, and depending on which F100/F110, you'd have between 29,000-32,500lb of thrust.

Oh, I am sure it would be a good change. Just trying to understand the impact on performance....

BTW I am sure we could get more thrust out of both the F100 or F110. If, true could a F110 with 35,000 lbs. Provide near F119 performance in the F-22A???

I think they've even gotten more out of them than that, but what does that do to the durability of the motor though, compared with the F119?

Well, to some countries that may not be such a big issue...............

I'm just trying to understand why an arbitrary decision to use a less powerful motor, that might not last as long at its tuning, would be made though. I'd think if anything, perhaps an improved F119 would be more desirable.

Well, I am not stating that replacing F119's with either the F100 or F110 makes sense for the US. My point was just to clarify what would be the performance shortfalls of such a combination???

Corsair1963 wrote:

Well, I am not stating that replacing F119's with either the F100 or F110 makes sense for the US. My point was just to clarify what would be the performance shortfalls of such a combination???

I'd think an F-15 or F-16 would benefit a lot more, seeing as how F-22s are US only.

An F-15 on the other hand, with 2 engines rated at 32,500-35,000lbs of thrust would peel your eyelids back.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 equipped with P & W F100's or GE F110's?