Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Ok now, considering the advantages that TV and DAS brings to the Within Visual Contact arena, can we conclude that the aircraft with the DAS technology will best the one with TV???

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calel wrote:

Ok now, considering the advantages that TV and DAS brings to the Within Visual Contact arena, can we conclude that the aircraft with the DAS technology will best the one with TV???

This is very much like Binoculars vs Lawnmower. Two completely different things!

I seem to recall a comment made by one of the F-16 drivers who posts here regularly that in 9 time out of 10 situational awareness trumps maneuverability.

If maneuvering is irrelevant with DAS as Northrop Grumman says, then a fighter with this element will have the edge over a super fighter like the F-22 in a close quarter combat. I mean, all over the media a lot of people talk about the greatness of Thrust Vectoring, but the way I see it -based in Northrop Grumman DAS statements- maybe TV for the close-in scenario will be out of the equation when designing future combat jets.

Can someone with specific knowlege in the matter give insight.

[quote="dwightlooi"]

calel wrote:

This is very much like Binoculars vs Lawnmower. Two completely different things!

Binocs confer the ability for first shot, so they would be better than lawnmower. With the latest 3rd generation lenses, it doesn't matter if the lawnmower can mulch or bag or even if it's self propelled. It would still get owned long before it could bring it's blade to bear. It's been said by many lawncare professionals, the ability to zero radius turn (aka the John Deere Cobra maneuver) is not useful in real combat. It's just a nice lawn and garden show trick.

All these analogies bring to mind an old saying: "Your arrse is grass and I'm the lawnmower" - Wait - there's more.... Now with new improved DAS! Smile

EODAS (correct term btw) can be used for MUCH more than HOBS shots, while TVC is only used for maneuverability.

EODAS without HOBS is pointless and TVC without knowing which way to turn is pointless. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. EODAS does give a better ROI and has a lower weight penalty.

Missiles keep getting better and better with larger HOBS capability and longer ranges. EODAS acts as a force multiplier in relation to this trend. TVC, however, does not benefit from this trend.

Forum Veteran Joined: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:22 PM Posts: 605

If you need TVC then you've already screwed the pooch (sts).

Nothing beats a well positioned shot the old traditional way. TVC and DAS shots will probably mean the enemy had already come too close for confort and probably have a tactical advantage at start.

High off boresight shots robb you off missile range big time.

Salute!

Gotta go with Snake-Deuce.

Not sure what exactly DAS and all the other abbreviations mean, but the Harriers could rotate nozzles and defeat a close-in gun shot, then took 15 seconds to get "E" and try to defeat the 'winder chasing him.

The Deuce and Six could do a "bat turn" and then be about the same. The attacker pulled up, rolled, then got a good tone and fired. Sometimes got a gun kill for "style points".

No substitute for maintaining "E" and having a good turn rate ( Viper's 25 deg per second is still there, just like twenty years ago).

All the off-boresight stuff is great, but you have to maneuver to get where it will work. We still don't have missiles that will turn 180 degrees from the launch and hit the target, regardless of the aiming/targeting procedure.

Head-on shots still work, especially with the gun or the new IR missiles.

So the secret is to stay between the other guy's 3-9 position, and altitude advantge is important.

later,

Gums sends ...

DAS (or more properly called EODAS) is the system of 6 IIR cameras that are positioned around the F-35's airframe. They do several things.

1. Missile launch detection and tracking, both airborne and SAMS (also ground AAA).

2. Aircraft tracking within the WVR rangeband. Using this data the pilot can fire on any target without having to use his HMD. He can just select the target in the threat display and fire.

3. Track moving ground targets by comparative image processing.

4. Can display the IIR imagery in the HMD for purposes of a navigation aide (instead of NVGs).

Salute!

TNX, Spud-breath.

You still have to get to a good firing solution, regardless of all the "help".

The LO aspect of the Raptor and Lightning will prolly mean more to a successful engagement than all the cosmic sensor fusion and such.

'Lose sight, lose fight" is still valid, IMHO. And when the other guy never has "sight", then it's a turkey shoot until you fire the first few missiles. As someone once said, " a visual is worth a thousand mile radar contact".

I can just imagine the gomer experiencing a "miss" because one of the cosmic missiles the Lightning just fired didn't guide. Then the second one hits, and "blam". Bad hair day, huh. Hope he used his own cosmic stuff to fire something that was off the rail before he got smoked.

Almost a hundred years ago we learned some lessons that are still valid today, and prolly into the future decade or two. Most of the folks getting shot down never saw the attacker!!!!

So what does LO do to keep that concept valid?

later,

Gums sends....

The US is developing the next generation of AAM.. JDRADM.

It will be a tri-mode seeker... IIR, Radar, and HARM functions. Boeing is lead developer and we should see many of the sub-components mature by the end of 2010.

Check this thread for what I found on the JDRADM dates and Boeing's idea on what it will look like.

One thing they could do to enable a higher PK is to perfect the "restartable" rocket motor. GD had this thought (post #1 on the above link) and it would allow the AAM to fly a high, arching profile. At the apogee, the motor would shut off and coast to the target area. When it approaches, it would reignite the motor and finish the engagement under full TVC rocket power.

I think, based on Boeing's graphic and it's small tail fins, that this is the way they are thinking.

----edit

Just dug this up RE: JDRADM

Quote:

SDD award ~2015
LRIP award ~2020

Actually it is the 747 with the big a$$ laser cued by an AESA AWACS or IRST on roids that will own TVC, EODAS, J-Lo, Puff Daddy, and uncle Bob, and their missiles. All from the rear AO. Crazy Pilot

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

DAS versus Thrust Vectoring