Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Corsair1963, why would the RAAF want a downgraded Growler? Because it will be cheaper? RAAF require the best aircraft we can afford. Nothing less will do and we have the money. Show me the money! Smile

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One thing I don't get is the seemingly unconditional AUgov declaration of a unilateral (acquisition) budget providing AU$16b albeit for an unknown number of NACC units... and then seemingly declare to all interested parties that after the commitment is made to buy F-35, the 'exact numbers' of F-35s afforded will be known years down line.??

Hence, what incentive is there to LM to give the best possible deal and deliver the maximal units to AUS? Shouldn't a fixed-price contract based over so many years procurement, etc, etc, be a no-brainer for such a major acquisition? It sounds as if they will be buying them piecemeal now, year by year and just hoping to heck they will in the end afford the number desired?

Furthermore, this 'Flyaway price' thing is frustrating (Do they mean Unit Recurring? or Total Flyway??). Especially so, since AUgov apparently is commiting to order first and then assume a (very dubious) $80m unit Flyaway after the fact? If any consolation though, the AU$ has been surging over the past 6 months and likewise could probably afford today, %20 more JSF than it could earlier in the year! Now that is a trend perhaps worth delaying around a couple more months to negotiate an acceptionally good first buy Shocked

SM - when I am hypothesizing a date of 2020 for RAAF's first full squadron reaching FOC status, I was basing perhaps 6-12 months combined delay of AUS's lot 7 and lot 8 buys (currently anticipating 15 a/c per buy), the combination of said 'BuyYear' lots (lot 7 plus portion of lot 8 units) would comprise the first full block III FOC squadron. IOC of the full squadron could be late 2017 to mid 2018'ish accordingly and then for estimate sake, add 1.5 yrs to achieve FOC. It's all guess work, granted, based on current developments and trends.

For the very point being argued above, there will be definite 'Capability gaps' as such, given this scenario, with the 1st FOC squadron around 2020, replacing the last of 3 retiring FOC F/A-18 squadrons. I.E., the replacement of 3 legacy FOC squadrons with 1 FOC squadron!

Now when taking 2020 and F/A-18 retirement factor into consideration, it is soley based on their expected FLEI (fatigue life expended index) going forward. This fairly generous 2020 date would likely push that Index OVER the Life expectation and that is assuming Peace-time over the next 10 yr duration, with no overseas combat deployments (or domestic). IMHO very risky and highly justified for further strategic review. Hence the above mentioned alternative.

As a modification to the 3 Super squadron + 1 F-35 block IV alternative acquisition, pondered above (as a hybrid-NACC), the current Super Hornet Tranche (24 a/c) could be replaced smoothly in 2025 +/- by a 2nd, follow-on Block VI F-35 squadron w/NGJ and advanced EA functions. (Providing a Quarterback, wide receiver and a couple blockers capability!) Salute

Corsair -

I personally think your idea of the 'Growler lite' has merit and in my opinion definitely could become a major 'must have' asymmetrical capability in bolstering a variety of 'legacy' airframes competitiveness.

For one thing, my envisioned, evolved 'ultra legacy' http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3480 ... reagle.jpg (F-15X SuperEagle) has in fact been equipped with such an equivalent system. (Furthermore, I previously had envisioned the F-16Xx delta wing variant being an acceptionally potent platform for such an 'Electronic Awareness' bolt-on).

Perhaps an evolved, 'competing' capability will some day be making popular load-outs as well on upgraded, new-build F-16 block 50/52+ even, and block 60s as demand for literally broad spectrum situational awareness grows?

Growler Lite for Australia is a ridiculous notion. We need the best and we can afford it within reason. So we go for it - in true Oz fashion. Why accept anything less?

Haha, perhaps that would be as oxymoronic as ordering a XXXX Gold lite, or Crown lager lite beer!!

For sake of the general concept however, such 'GL' systems capability overall makes good market sense IMHO, for multiple customers flying legacy jets over the next 10-20 yrs. Didn't mean to dishonor the RAAF's fashion in promoting this particular variant, although perhaps a totally hypothetical economical mix could be something like 24 wired a/c operating with: 8x full blown Growler equipped + 12x lite equipped??

As regards Australian Super Hornets I will bet there will be some updates over the years to keep them current no matter their configuration otherwise. Like the RN FAA the RAAF are as resourceful as they can be. Money is likely not going to be a constraint in our economic relative prosperity. Go figure.

spazsinbad wrote:

As regards Australian Super Hornets I will bet there will be some updates over the years to keep them current no matter their configuration otherwise. Like the RN FAA the RAAF are as resourceful as they can be. Money is likely not going to be a constraint in our economic relative prosperity. Go figure.

Weapons and sensor upgrades definitely. I very much doubt there will be significant upgrades to the airframe or motors...

As to Growler, I'll wait and see, but if there are EVER more than 6x Growler variants of ANY kind in ADF service, I'll be stunned.

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 23, 2009 - 08:44 AM Posts: 97

Conan wrote:

As to Growler, I'll wait and see, but if there are EVER more than 6x Growler variants of ANY kind in ADF service, I'll be stunned.

ditto. approval of 2nd pass is no guarantee of all 12 getting up. the view has always been 6+6 - and going to 12 impacts upon a significant number of other issues which the govt is not keen on as they direct defence to pull in the belts.

there will be deployment and training cues that start to confirm how serious the gumby upgrades are - and there is no indication anywhere that the govt or RAAF will invest in a short squadron. there is still guarded optinion on whether a flight will get up.

these are harness fitouts during the builds - ie in our USN slot. So reharnessing is likely to happen at the end stroke of the run. if planes 13-18 don't get harnessed, then there is the obvious clue.

BACC is running ahead of time as well, so thats a good sign. at the moment we're on schedule for 1 artefact/article per month

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

RAAF F-35 sqn Quarterbacking F-18 Supers